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Foraging and Mining
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HR-Trevor
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Joined: 04 Oct 2002
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Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Foraging and Mining
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So, what do you think of the foraging and mining systems in HR? What do you like? What do you dislike? What would you like to see in Live for these systems?
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:57 pm    Post subject:
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i'd like to be able to somehow select how long i want to mine/forage and have the amount i get be based on that.

example:
Code:
>forage londrum 60
You forage up 12 units of londrum.
roundtime: 60 seconds
would be the same as:
Code:
>forage londrum
You forage up 3 units of londrum.
roundtime: 15 seconds
>forage londrum
You forage up 3 units of londrum.
roundtime: 15 seconds
>forage londrum
You forage up 3 units of londrum.
roundtime: 15 seconds
>forage londrum
You forage up 3 units of londrum.
roundtime: 15 seconds

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Brokyn
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Joined: 19 Oct 2002
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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:44 pm    Post subject:
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Likes:

-Being able to hide while foraging (I guess it's the same for mining). Keeps room scroll down, and keeps random passersby from talking to/killing you.

-Roundtime seems appropriate.

Dislikes:

-Profitability. Commodity selling prices need to come way down. This won't prevent people from selling person-to-person at higher prices; but to have the profit hard-coded to be so high, it really skews the economy. Besides, they're only building blocks for creation systems, not the creation system itself. Forageables and mineables are rather useless on their own beyond filling your experience pool.

-Findability. All materials shouldn't always be found in the same place all the time (aka: all X areas shouldn't always have Y). Also, in Live, seasons should affect certain things being found. This kind of assumes that the whole planet won't be sharing the same season/weather so people will have a reason to migrate around. Or, people will be able to buy commodities from distant lands via inter-province auction houses.

General Commodity Gripe:

Not specifically about forageables/mineables, but it's related. I'm not going to point fingers, but having a handful of people producing 100+ dose potions for everyone (given that they put everything in the flask beforehand) isn't helping the economy either. It's effectively doubling -- if not tripling? -- the profit most people would otherwise be making off of selling the potions to the commodity market.

I have no idea how to combat this, though, besides putting in a hard cap on doses.

--William
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Xavain



Joined: 22 Jun 2003
Posts: 157

 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject:
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Brokyn wrote:
Likes:

-Findability. All materials shouldn't always be found in the same place all the time (aka: all X areas shouldn't always have Y). Also, in Live, seasons should affect certain things being found. This kind of assumes that the whole planet won't be sharing the same season/weather so people will have a reason to migrate around. Or, people will be able to buy commodities from distant lands via inter-province auction houses.

--William



Oh god no, this ruined foraging in DR. Absolutely hated that change. Foraging is still workable but it's a fantasy game, some reality to be able to relate is good but there is such a thing as taking it too far.
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:01 pm    Post subject:
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Xavain wrote:
Oh god no, this ruined foraging in DR. Absolutely hated that change. Foraging is still workable but it's a fantasy game, some reality to be able to relate is good but there is such a thing as taking it too far.


no, foraging being completely untrainable in DR because:
1) what you could find in an area didn't follow any known logic
2) no one knew what to forage to get decent exp
3) timers limiting how much exp you could get
4) no one knew what was in a room
5) certain items teaching better and some not teaching at all even though they all took the same amount of time to find

not being able to always find everything was probably the lowest thing on the totem pole of what was bad with the new foraging.
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Xavain



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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:15 pm    Post subject:
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soundless wrote:
Xavain wrote:
Oh god no, this ruined foraging in DR. Absolutely hated that change. Foraging is still workable but it's a fantasy game, some reality to be able to relate is good but there is such a thing as taking it too far.


no, foraging being completely untrainable in DR because:
1) what you could find in an area didn't follow any known logic
2) no one knew what to forage to get decent exp
3) timers limiting how much exp you could get
4) no one knew what was in a room
5) certain items teaching better and some not teaching at all even though they all took the same amount of time to find

not being able to always find everything was probably the lowest thing on the totem pole of what was bad with the new foraging.


Yeah, and the drive for more realism (again in a fantasy game) brought about that change which then put into play all the factors you list there. It's a horrible system now. *shrugs* Maybe I'm remembering wrong but it started with someone going "hey, why doesn't weather affect what i can find, I mean it's snowing!" or something to that effect.
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject:
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you can give a nod toward realism without ruining a system.

rare uber-plant used to create powerful potion only blooms/is ready to be foraged when Ilafai is full = fun (for me)

rare uber-plant only blooms/is ready to be foraged when Ilafai is full and is the only way to train ecology ever for you but you may not even know that because you're busy foraging for buttons oin z'dan castle and damned if that moves your exp pool = not fun

you can also look at it this way. if a certain component isn't available 24/7/365, on a game balance level certain potions could be created that give great effects without disrupting the game that badly.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject:
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Hmm. What a compromise, such as forageables determined by terrain (as is now) but rooms deplete quickly and take a good while to regenerate, and things like seasons, weather, etc can accelerate or decelerate regrowth?

This being for common items, not uber rare items as Yaru just mentioned.
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


Joined: 22 May 2004
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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
Hmm. What a compromise, such as forageables determined by terrain (as is now) but rooms deplete quickly and take a good while to regenerate, and things like seasons, weather, etc can accelerate or decelerate regrowth?


that would be cool, too.

i think HR is already taking care of the major failing of foraging in DR just with making us able to SURVEY to see what you can find right where you are.

(and it isn't like foraging for ivy just stops giving you exp after a point)
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Brokyn
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Joined: 19 Oct 2002
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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject:
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Hiding behind "oh, it's just a fantasy game!" is quite a cop-out. I'd rather the game have a bit of difficulty instead of it handing me everything on a few silver platters.

And it's not like this is asking for too much difficulty. What's so bad about wanting people to type OBSERVE SKY to figure out the local season, then using that information to figure out if what they need to forage is going to even be growing in their province?

Comparing this to how a similar change was handled in DR is also in poor form. In DR, certain guilds absolutely had to spend time foraging in order to level up. Here in HR, however, you can spend your time doing pretty much anything you want in order to level. The only difference between now and in Live is that what you do will determine (to some degree) what you can spend skill training points on.

So if it's too difficult to look up seasonal growing patterns in an in-game book, or the HR Wiki, or even ask someone else, you can just buy the foreagables off someone that's able and willing to in order to produce your potions or poisons.

--William

[edit:] Trevor posted before I finished my little hissy-fit rant. Seasons/weather affecting regrowth would be a good compromise, I suppose.
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Xavain



Joined: 22 Jun 2003
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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject:
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Brokyn wrote:
Hiding behind "oh, it's just a fantasy game!" is quite a cop-out. I'd rather the game have a bit of difficulty instead of it handing me everything on a few silver platters.

And it's not like this is asking for too much difficulty. What's so bad about wanting people to type OBSERVE SKY to figure out the local season, then using that information to figure out if what they need to forage is going to even be growing in their province?

Comparing this to how a similar change was handled in DR is also in poor form. In DR, certain guilds absolutely had to spend time foraging in order to level up. Here in HR, however, you can spend your time doing pretty much anything you want in order to level. The only difference between now and in Live is that what you do will determine (to some degree) what you can spend skill training points on.

So if it's too difficult to look up seasonal growing patterns in an in-game book, or the HR Wiki, or even ask someone else, you can just buy the foreagables off someone that's able and willing to in order to produce your potions or poisons.

--William

[edit:] Trevor posted before I finished my little hissy-fit rant. Seasons/weather affecting regrowth would be a good compromise, I suppose.


Not hiding in the least, i just get sick of everyone wanting everything to be like it is RL. Much like the games where you have to eat and drink to survive. I wouldn't be surprised if a game, not this one, made it so if you didn't use the restroom your bladder blew up. I'm sorry but that's just not fun (to me). Having to work for things, having a challenge, etc that's great. Otherwise things just get boring. I'm not saying hand everyone a million units of Vyeftium everyday.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject:
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I look at this issue just like I look at "how to gain levels". Some people like combat, some people like to forage, some people want a way to do something that allows them to hang out in town with friends while still progressing. In not every case can we appeal to everyone, sometimes we have to choose sides. But, I think it's imperative that we try to appeal to as many people as possible when we make game design decisions, which is exactly why threads like this one exist.

I don't think our choices are black and white, realistic or not. I've certainly never intended Haelrahv to be a life simulator, nor is it an arcade game. The intent is somewhere in the middle, even if it leans a little more one way or another in some cases.

To cite a foraging example, if you have to work at getting valuable resources instead of just running a script in almost any room that's outdoors, I think that's a good thing. If, on the other hand, you need a spreadsheet and specialized maps to go on a wild expedition to find basic supplies, we've overdone it.
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Tylen
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Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject:
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Brokyn wrote:
-Being able to hide while foraging (I guess it's the same for mining). Keeps room scroll down, and keeps random passersby from talking to/killing you.


Hiding while foraging should have a penalty to RT and/or the amount of material you can find, which would reduce as stealth skill increases. Not all resources are going to be convenient to "hiding spots," and it's going to be a little slower sneaking around the area to gather up everything.

And keeping room scroll down doesn't seem to be a huge priority among most people I've seen. My favorite is when someone walks into CC, moves a bunch of junk from one container to another, and then walks out again.

Quote:
stuff about foraging in DR


I'll admit it takes a little time getting used to, but it's incredibly easy to gain ranks in once you do. It went from my 12th highest survival skill to my 2nd (around 400 ranks now) in just a few months.

Unless you're survival tertiary, then you're screwed.
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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:
Unless you're survival tertiary, then you're screwed.


that too. Wink
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With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
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Xavain



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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject:
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soundless wrote:
Tylen wrote:
Unless you're survival tertiary, then you're screwed.


that too. Wink


Heh, forgot about that myself. I'm speaking as a survival tert. I used to dabble in foraging a bit, little bit of alchemy. I tried to mess with it some after the change but I've just dropped it completely since then.
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