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NPCs buying things for less over time?
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:34 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
The skinning reqs vary a lot with the -value- of the skin. In most cases, if we made a skin easier to obtain, it would be worth less than it is now. Would that be in your favor? For Yaru, yes. For Josie, no.


but the problem is that once i can skin them and use them for tailoring projects that i plan to sell, then the value won't be that great after all, because while i'm finally at the level where i can skin them, i'm amazingly past the level where i should be hunting them.

the pelt value may go by skinning, but the tailoring value goes by the critter level. that's the massive problem i'm facing while hunting getok, too. i'm now able to sometimes skin getok, because they're at my level in term of my [100+ capped] skinning, but my level is too high to finally benefit from training skinning so hard.

if skinning requirements aren't based on the critter level, then the money someone gets from skins and goods tailored from skins shouldn't be based on critter level either.
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A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
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HR-Valla



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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:17 pm    Post subject:
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i don't think everything should just be handed to me, and i'm sure you're hardly thrilled that i'm always bitching about this stuff, and while i'm definitely sure that trackers should have a purpose, i'm not sure why skinning things has to be some phenominally harder than just fighting and opening their boxes.

can the skinning reqs be put more in line with the fact that skills cap out at 200?


I am going to point a few things out here..

Artisans for being a relatively non-combative profession, have the capabilites of making good money.

Skills do not cap out at 200, as you should know, since you yourself have trained past 200.

And you are right, each profession has its place, with that said, Trackers on the average are always going to be able to skin better than Artisans. That is a perk of being a Tracker, and let us not forget the perks that Artisans have, that other professions can not do at all.

Once a player reaches 100th level, that does not mean that they will automatically be able to do everthing, and we are trying our best to keep the gaming environment challenging and entertaining for everyone. Not cater solely to one person because they feel they are being slighted and not making enough money.
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:28 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Valla wrote:
And you are right, each profession has its place, with that said, Trackers on the average are always going to be able to skin better than Artisans. That is a perk of being a Tracker, and let us not forget the perks that Artisans have, that other professions can not do at all


it isn't that trackers shouldn't be better than skinning. that isn't the issue.

the issue is that kuchos take X skill to hunt, X skill to disarm, and Y skill (notably above X) to skin.

this is the same as getok, which require notably more to skin than to hunt.

this would not be an issue if my ability to make money tailoring relied solely on me hunting at level. i had no issue going "I can't skin getok yet, so i'll stick to kashaga and move to getok when I can", but with the way things are currently set up i'm being pretty much told "no, you should be hunting higher".

skinning requirements aren't set according to the critters level, but according to how much a GM feels they want the skin to be worth. this is a 100% valid choice, except that once i do have the skinning to skin them, i'll be phenominally above their level so i won't be able to finally make the amount of money using my hard-earned skill if i had that skill amount when i was closer to their level (which i'm unable to have). this is exactly what is happening in getoks for me. it isn't that i'm not keeping my skinning at my level, but that the getok skinning req is amazingly above the level it should be if i was hunting getok. this is also what is happening to kucho.

all i'm saying is that either skinning reqs should be according to level reqs like combats and security reqs so the people who do have to skin at level to make tailored goods can, or that the "you have to hunt and skin at level to make a proper amount of money tailoring" formula gets reassessed to go by the skinning reqs for the critters as opposed to the level the critter actually is

HR-Valla wrote:
That is a perk of being a Tracker, and let us not forget the perks that Artisans have, that other professions can not do at all.


if, in order to hunt at-level, combat professions needed an artisan to weave them a bridge into the area or a 'crat to convince a giant to open a door or whatever, and if they were penalized if they didn't go hunt there where they should be, combat people would have an issue with having to rely on someone else.

in order to tailor at-level, i need a tracker to skin for me. i'm cool with professions working together, but i'm against having to rely on another profession to do something at the level i should be. if i wanted the skins of a 100+ critter that i'm not even at the proper level to deal with in the first place, i'd be ultra-fine with relying on someone else, because that's above my level. but these are the things i should be able to deal with to function, and i can't skin them. once i can, though, i'm going to technically be supposed to hunt the big thing past that, which while i have the combats/security of someone my level to deal with, i'll be unable to deal with them..
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A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:53 pm    Post subject:
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okay okay, i got the way to describe the situation properly!

let's say that there was a level 80 critter named Bob. now, combat people in the 80s would only get the treasure drops at the rate they should if they hunted Bob.

the only issue is that Bob has the combat reqs that you would expect on a level 100 critter, so only Mercs have the skills to actually hunt them without being beaten to a pulp. sadly, once people get to level 100 and have the combat skills to hunt Bob that are at par with someone level 100, they actually don't get the treasure rate that hunting Bob would have given them at level 80, and instead they have to hunt Jim, who is a level 100 critter with the combat skills of a level 120 critter.

that's my situation, only with skinning reqs and tailoring at level. i can't tailor at level because the skinning reqs are way above what the critters other reqs at that level are. i'm always behind and once my skinning level catches up, my overall level is too high and i have to go to the next big thing, which is too big and i have to get my skinning higher, but once THAT happens i'm too big, again.
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A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
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Tylen
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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:07 am    Post subject:
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This doesn't even really have anything to do with artisans/tailoring.

Getoks are a great example. They are level 70 critters, yet no one but Trackers can make any money at all off them until well after 100.

It might be easier to just stick "Tracker-only" stickers on them. Or even better, just leave skin values out of the equation when calculating the dollar value of high-level combat since it doesn't apply to 9 out of 10 professions.

Also, Josie wasn't a good example to use for Kuchos since she does happen to be 20-something levels beyond them.
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HR-Mickey
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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:47 am    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:
This doesn't even really have anything to do with artisans/tailoring.


Uh... have you even been reading this thread the entire time you've been armchair quarterbacking through it?

Tylen wrote:
Getoks are a great example. They are level 70 critters, yet no one but Trackers can make any money at all off them until well after 100.

It might be easier to just stick "Tracker-only" stickers on them. Or even better, just leave skin values out of the equation when calculating the dollar value of high-level combat since it doesn't apply to 9 out of 10 professions.


Has the thought even once crossed your mind that there might possibly be characters (or players) without min-max on the brain, that hunt either for the experience, the thrill of something challenging, or some similar reason? The funny quirk about mobs that don't drop boxes is that nobody makes money off of them, so where does the "dollar value" of a non-sentient quadruped come into play in your example? If the means didn't justify the end, then we'd be sorting every critter into distinct piles of "Tracker" and "Mercenary" and tell everyone else to just suck it up.

soundless wrote:
stuff


All I'm seeing out of this thread is a seriously vicious case of the Gimmegimmes. It's great that you've reached 100th level and blown out your stats and skills to inhuman levels and all, but the insistence that you're thereby entitled to X amount of cash per time-increment is only going to go so far. It's not a secret fast track privilege; it was never intended to be.

When an Artisan tailors a skin, the resultant item takes the original value of the skin, multiplies it by some stuff based on project and the artisan's skill, and then (before I lowered the figure) added 720% to that for a final figure simply by merit of profession. You, personally, were getting almost 9-10 times the skin's value after the fact, for two minutes of no-brain work. Don't get me wrong -- I want your character to be as successful as the next -- but there's no rational justification I can begin to consider that makes that sound like a balanced system to me.

soundless wrote:
so the people who do have to skin at level to make tailored goods can


This may be a good time to remind you that there's an entire textile and textile-creation system in HR; Artisans aren't required to skin anything -- it's solely at their discretion to do so, and their perogative to train well enough (or aspire to) to do it.
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:21 am    Post subject:
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HR-Mickey wrote:
All I'm seeing out of this thread is a seriously vicious case of the Gimmegimmes. It's great that you've reached 100th level and blown out your stats and skills to inhuman levels and all, but the insistence that you're thereby entitled to X amount of cash per time-increment is only going to go so far. It's not a secret fast track privilege; it was never intended to be.


please please please stop accusing me of thinking i deserve everytthing because i hit 100? please? it's just unfair and pretty much a blanket excuse you can can use anytime someone wants something tweaked.

all i'm saying is that if a critter requires someone to have the combats of someone level 75 to hunt, the security of someone level 75 to disarm, they should have the skinning reqs of someone level 75 as well.

you tweaked it so players have to tailor skins at thier own level to gain profits just like players have to hunt at their own level to gain treasure-profits. i have accepted that and i am cool with it. it makes sense for the balance of the game and i find it completely fair. all i'm asking (more like begging, at this point), is that you (general you) at least have the things at a players level be skinnable by someone who isn't a tracker.

i don't think i'm asking for the moon here. if that's the case, i'm really sorry that i'm not conveying things properly. i just want something to skin at my level that isn't set up so only trackers are the only ones who can skin them. that isn't a "gimmie gimmie gimmie" thing to me. it's a "i'm not being encouraged to underskin, so let me skin at my level".

you don't want me skinning things below my level and making scroll cases and tons of cash. okay, fine. but if that's the case let me at least have something i can skin, not something just trackers can skin without being well over 100.

Quote:
This may be a good time to remind you that there's an entire textile and textile-creation system in HR; Artisans aren't required to skin anything -- it's solely at their discretion to do so, and their perogative to train well enough (or aspire to) to do it.


and that system is great, but even then i'm well over the skill and stats needed to do the hardest one. i know you're busy so you can't just make a new skein each time i/mellie/etc reach a new tier, so it is in no way your fault for coding slower than i obsessively powerlevel, but i want something at my level to do. everyone pretty much said 'so go hunt' so i went to hunt kashaga to get pelts. i was then told 'no, kashaga are too easy, so hunt getok'. so i hunted getok. but while i can't even really SKIN those, they're still too easy level wise so i get less rewards than if i skinned things at my level. so now kucho can be skinned, but they're not even remotely skinnable by me, and by the time i can skin them, they won't be close enough to my level for me to get payoffs like i would get if i could skin them at a level closer to them.

all i want is something challenging to do. it isn't like i'm the only high level artisan who has been doing the same stuff over and over forever. i know we can't get new craft stuff made on the fly, so i'm turning to hunting and skinning to craft things. i really want to at least somehow involve yaru's artisan profession stuff in his hunting, just so i know that i picked artisan for a good reason. but if i can't skin at my level, i can't do that.

i didn't know that wanting to be able to do more things than weave jabo skeins and whittle kailet blocks like i have done for the last 40 levels/4+ months was an entitelement complex. i thought it was more just wanting to do something that let me know my guy was improving as an artisan. but i can't do that, because being faster is unbalanced, and making more money is unbalanced, and coding skeins isn't easy, and coding woods isn't easy, and a lot of other stuff that is all very reasonable and understandable... but what it boils down to is that i have been pretty much doing the same two tasks over and over for the past few months and, like people want newer and harder things to hunt, and newer and harder commods to forage, and newer and harder potions to make (all those having better rewards, as well). so like all those other people, i want newer and harder things to craft with better rewards.

i just didn't realize wanting stuff for artisans past level 60 (or 67, tops) was me being unreasonable. i didn't realize wanting to have things at my level to skin was unreasonable. i didn't realize a lot, obviously, because i'm rabidly under the assumption that entitled to things, like something new to do.

it's really hard to be polite with these kinds of requests when you've just told i'm being unreasonable with desires for entitlement and i feel auto-labeled as someone just interested in min-maxing stats and making tons of money. i've been actively involved in roleplay events. i'm constantly trying to encourage people to roleplay. i'm one of the ultra-few people who tried to actually support a player based economy. so while i may like knowing facts and figures about the games and how to train things to benefit myself as an artisan, please do not label me as some powergamer who has no other interest in the game except imaginary financial gain.
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A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.


Last edited by soundless on Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tylen
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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:47 am    Post subject:
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Hey, I was just trying to help by showing it's not just limited to affecting Artisans. Blah blah game balance blah blah. I won't cry because no one wants to fix this.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:11 pm    Post subject:
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Yaru, I want to clarify something. I'm getting the impression you feel there is a modifier in tailoring product values based on your level versus the creature's level. Therefore you feel you can't make adequate money based on the fact you can't yet skin things you can kill, and by the time you can skin them, you're well over their level and get less from the tailored skins.

Did I summarize that correctly?
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:23 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
Yaru, I want to clarify something. I'm getting the impression you feel there is a modifier in tailoring product values based on your level versus the creature's level. Therefore you feel you can't make adequate money based on the fact you can't yet skin things you can kill, and by the time you can skin them, you're well over their level and get less from the tailored skins.

Did I summarize that correctly?


pretty much, but i don't think it's that i feel something out of paranoia more than this thread sorta blew up into the huge discussion based on being told just that (and my scroll cases prices dropped by a notable amount since the tweak happened mid me tailoring a batch).

HR-Mickey wrote:
I made a slight change to tailoring result values, but it's a tweak in progress and I'm not entirely certain how the value dropped off so much. We're looking into the latter, but my reasoning for the former goes like this:

Your level - kashaga = 40-ish level difference

Someone hunting for treasure in those circumstances are going to get very little (more likely, nothing) for searching because of the hunting level curve.

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A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:27 pm    Post subject:
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The reason I ask, in addition to wanting to understand the issue, is because there is no level modifier. Mickey dropped the bonus value Artisans get (maybe Trackers too, unsure) across the board recently around the time you first posted on value changes. However there is nothing that says "lower value because they're using x skin which is y levels under them".
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EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:39 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
The reason I ask, in addition to wanting to understand the issue, is because there is no level modifier. Mickey dropped the bonus value Artisans get (maybe Trackers too, unsure) across the board recently around the time you first posted on value changes. However there is nothing that says "lower value because they're using x skin which is y levels under them".


in that case it's kinda odd that getok scroll cases sell for the same as kashaga. and since i was told that it was due to level range differences that is what i was basing things on...
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With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
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