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NPCs buying things for less over time?
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:31 am    Post subject: NPCs buying things for less over time?
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do tailored goods now work like commodities? i have no clue what caused this amazing price drop in mid-selling.

first i was selling kashaga scroll cases for ~$975 with exceptionals selling at ~$1925...then they randomly dropped to ~$675 and ~1350

what happen?
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:25 am    Post subject:
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Not that I'm aware of unless Mickey/Valla added something at some point that I don't know of. Please let us know if this continues and/or is repeatable.
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:27 am    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
Not that I'm aware of unless Mickey/Valla added something at some point that I don't know of. Please let us know if this continues and/or is repeatable.


well, i tried making a new scroll case and that one sold for $676... so unless those first pelts were magic or something i'm not sure why they gave me such better returns.

i'm really confused, mainly because sshliss skin scroll cases sell (sold? i can't test since i can't get to jareya right now) for $850... and i'm not sure why kashaga would sell for less than sshliss.
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:11 pm    Post subject:
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any clue what made kashaga pelt scroll cases drop like this? they're still only selling for $650ish...
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:47 am    Post subject:
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Discussing it with Midkey. Neither of us have any idea at this point. None of the relevant systems were modified so far as either of us recall.
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HR-Mickey
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:12 am    Post subject:
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I made a slight change to tailoring result values, but it's a tweak in progress and I'm not entirely certain how the value dropped off so much. We're looking into the latter, but my reasoning for the former goes like this:

Your level - kashaga = 40-ish level difference

Someone hunting for treasure in those circumstances are going to get very little (more likely, nothing) for searching because of the hunting level curve.

Skinning, on the other hand, is guaranteeing you a pelt one-per-kill regardless of level, which then becomes a $1k profit (almost 10 times the value of the skin) in negligible time. That's not even taking an exceptional skin into account. Basically, it's disproving the theory that higher combat skills equate to more money hunting; the most lucrative hunting is done by Artisans tailoring single-unit scroll cases from 40 level underhunting. I find that disturbingly out of balance.

Quote:
Discussing it with Midkey.


<alto!>
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:55 am    Post subject:
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oh come on!

first off, this completely kills off any attempt i previous made at buying pelts/skins from players. i know tygerwulf will be making less money from me as a result of this.

second off, it isn't that i can spam-kill kashaga and get pelts that way. it's that they are the hardest critter i can skin. i have 200 skinning. i WANT to skin harder things, but i can't skin getok. there is nothing else in the game that is between kashaga and getok. and, from the sound of this, even though i can't skin getok, i'd be making less money off them as well just because i'm a higher level than them.

this is amazingly unfair. i'm not supposed to be a hunter. i'm being forced into it to make better money, and now i'm being punished because the gap between the tailoring-capable critters is phenominally huge, with the tihng after kashaga well past the 200 skinning mark, anyway.

it's bad enough that i have to hunt in order to make money as an artisan at a faster rate, because as an artisan i'm still making the exact same amount of money that i've been making at the exact same rate for the last who knows how many but way too many levels.

it's unfair to take the ways i can make money because they're too easy when i'm not doing them because they're easy, but because they're the only options available. if i could skin getok (I HAVE 200 SKINNING) i would. i'd hunt there. HONEST. but if i'm unable to skin getok, and kashaga are the next down the list with a pelt, then what SHOULD i be skinning? it isn't like i wouldn't be skinning getok if i could, because even with them being harder to hunt, the hides (and cases) sell for more.

right now i have two options:
1) make jabo eyelet sheets and tailor gowns
2) whilttle kailet idols

i've been doing that for about three months or so now, if not more. i've been asking for harder skeins. i want to have bigger challenges. but if there aren't bigger challenges that i can go for then what can i possibly do? just not make money?

this setup, to me, is like having no critters between levels 60-100, but with the current treasure system setup as it is right now. sure, people at level 60 can do a decent enough job hunting level 60 critters, but once you're around 90 you can't make cash there and it's only another 15 levels until you can start taking on elite guards.

it's amazingly depressing to not just be unable to continue buying pelts and hides from people, because that was, well, the only example of a consistant player based economy. heck, you guys were happy to see it in action. and even when you made the first price cut without announcing it, i kept it going. but now you're just compeltely shutting it off.

sure, making a jabo eyelet takes more time than killing a kashaga (or a getok, for that matter). but hell, even kashaga still hits me (200 evasion!). that, and a jabo eyelet gown that sells for $1,325 requires this:
1) tailoring
2) craftsmanship

a kashaga scroll case requires this:
1) tailoring
2) craftsmanship
3) offensive skill
4) defensive skill
5) skinning

i trained those things. they're all at 200. let me use them!

i feel like i'm being chased out of making things, because as far as i know i'm the only one who really tries to rely on crafting things via tailoring for money.

do you just want me to stop playing as an artisan? because while i can understand that it's harder to make new skeins/woods/etc than it is to make a new critter, i can't process why you want to shut off the paths i currently have to make money. that, and i can't see why you'd do that ESPECIALLY because there aren't more options.

there's absolutely zero way for me to get better as an artisan, and it's been that way since pretty much level 67, but i'm fine with that because i know the GMs mean well and really do want to make artisans more fun and exciting. but now you're making me feel like i'm getting worse as i progress.
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:02 am    Post subject:
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deleted this one because even i felt it came off as too conspiracy everyone is out to get me etc etc etc Wink

i think i reworded it better after the attempt at trolling, anyway.
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Last edited by soundless on Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tylen
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:16 am    Post subject:
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Boo hoo.

Call it

Quote:
part of that whole "fleshing out the beta test of the game so the live version is awesome" process.

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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:34 am    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:
Boo hoo.

Call it

Quote:
part of that whole "fleshing out the beta test of the game so the live version is awesome" process.




you really need to get over reallocations Sad

the issue isn't that the change was made, more that:

1) it implies artisans have to always have to work with the skins at their level, which makes no sense because there are no sheets/pelts/etc that are harder or easier to tailor, just harder or easier to skin/weave/spin. this means artisans can't buy materials from other people (who aren't the same level at them) without risking profit and does major damage to any form of a player economy. i know i won't be buying anymore hushoju (sp?) and so on hides from low level players anymore, because it's silly to waste time tailoring them if they won't even give me as little as they do now.
2) it implies artisans have to train yet another skill, skinning, to always be ahead of the game when it comes to having things to tailor that aren't fabrics
3) the biggest situation is the massive gap between skinning-based tailoring materials. it goes from sshliss to kashaga to getok. the skinning-skill-based gaps are enormous and can't be managed by an artisan, mainly because no artisan can skin getok. so high high level artisans HAVE to use getok to tailor "at level" but CAN'T get them. no other class has this problem, as far as i know. the closest comparison i would see is if the robots techs can salvage for parts stopping giving parts after you were above level X.

that said, claiming that it's effortless/takes no time to tailor scroll cases is rather silly, as well. in the time it takes me to tailor a scroll case (1 1/2 minutes - 2 minutes), i could easily just go kill ten modan kuchos/brinebone lurkers/etc and probably net a lot more cash than whatever that one scroll case makes me. so me getting pelts and making scroll cases isn't upsetting any balance.

the time it takes to make $1,000ish through weaving/whittling compared to the time it takes to do that when foraging/hunting is amazingly high. it takes me 8+ minutes to tailor a jabo eyelet gown that I can sell for $1,325ish. it tames me 8+ minutes to whittle a kailet idol that also goes around the same price. even if a hunter takes 30+ seconds to kill something, that makes over a dozen dead things and i'm sure one of them will at least have a box with some good commodities to sell in them, if not weapons/armor that go for 1k+ each.

according to Dzynna, who has maxed foraging as a tracker, it takes her 160 seconds to fill up a bundle. if the commod itself is a low-selling one (for example, one that goes for 10.0), that's still 5k in 3 minutes.

artisan-focused crafting skills take way longer than everything else and offer way less in terms of payola. it needs to be adjusted somehow. claiming it isn't hard to do isn't an excuse for why it pays so little. hunting is supposed to be something that results in cool treasures and so on. it isn't supposed to be the only source of good income at higher levels as well.
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With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
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Kit
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:35 pm    Post subject:
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soundless wrote:
i've been doing that for about three months or so now, if not more. i've been asking for harder skeins. i want to have bigger challenges. but if there aren't bigger challenges that i can go for then what can i possibly do? just not make money?

there's absolutely zero way for me to get better as an artisan, and it's been that way since pretty much level 67, but i'm fine with that because i know the GMs mean well and really do want to make artisans more fun and exciting. but now you're making me feel like i'm getting worse as i progress.



Now you know how I feel. However, I understand that Drake's been having some problems, so I'm not annoyed about it. As a 97th technician, the last thing I was able to do as a tech was hack my droid at level 48th. Artisans at least have harder/more things to do between level 50 and level 100. Heavier backpacks, other skeins...

Kit makes the same quality of gadgets as he did before (it depends on part quality, not skill...a level 20 tech can do just as well as me)...yeah...I can fix comm chips faster...but how does that make me money?

So, suffice to say, artisans are not terribly off. Just suck it up and forage like I do.
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Tylen
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject:
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Attempting to apply your overused troll pic doesn't make it so.

Push for more critters to skin, not some stopgap measure.

Besides, I don't think there's ever been a game with a decent player-based economy. At least I've never heard of any. I doubt this game will succeed where so many others have failed.
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Kit
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject:
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And one other thing...hunting is meant to be a super cash cow. It's dangerous...ends you up dead...and with very few reviving medics these days...yeah. Hunting does not equal tailoring. Nor should it ever. Heh...making a gadget is far more dangerous and sells for much much less with much much more time...we can cut off our hands.
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soundless
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:23 pm    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:
Attempting to apply your overused troll pic doesn't make it so.


your amazing failure at trolling before made the picture quite apt.

i don't even know how your reapplication of my quote made sense, either, since all that did was reference why i was bringing up another issue.

and kit, while i do admit hunting has danger, in no way is it this edge of your seat might die action thriller people claim it is as justification for being the only good way to make money.

hunting should be the way people get cool items. i fail to see why a class not focused on combat can't have as good a money source as a combat class. the reward of combat, to me, is more the gear than the cash. seeing how much money one can make from alchemy is a clear sign of that. a good tracker can get all the stuff together (not counting travel time) in like ten minutes (at least based on the 160RT total Dzy says it takes to fill a bundle).

i sincerely don't know why the system is being developed backwards, that's all. more critters that can be skinned for tailoring should come before the decision to make it so lower level critter skins produce lower priced products after you are X levels over them. that's how it worked for the search system, in a way. right now after level 70-75 or something, the penality for hunting critters past that level based on your level is different, mainly because there just aren't a lot of things to hunt and the GMs didn't want to force everyone to hunt critter X. since the two highest level skinnables are kashaga and getok, and because there is a massive gap between the two (with getok skins needing well over 200 skinning for a non tracker), there should be some kind of cutoff point where this penalty isn't implimented UNTIL there are more skinnables in that range that can be used. the GMs didn't want to force everyone into hunting critter X for treasure, meanwhile i don't even have a critter X.

for the past 5 levels or so i've been trying to get skin getok. i WANT to hunt harder things. but if i can't skin getok based on the skills i have that are capped, then kashaga is the next rung down on the ladder. i as the player shouldn't be punished because there aren't things in the middle to fill that massive gap.

then there's also the whole player economy issue, which i still stand behind. when my buying skins/pelts/etc were going full blast, i had people selling me skins and things from level 20 to level 90. under this new tailoring system tweak, buying anything that isn't getok isn't really worth it anymore. i can't validate paying other players as much as i did nor would i want to spend the amount of time it takes to tailor the lower level ones when it doesn't even pay off anymore. the system change also pretty much outright says that an artisan has to train combat, because he or she has to be on-level with combat to tailor things based on the critter at that specific level.

honestly, i originally made an artisan because i didn't want to hunt, except for the random spout of wanting to have some fun. now i feel i'm going to have to if i want to make money, because (a) there aren't things to tailor in the tailoring system that reflect someone with 200 tailoring (b) there aren't skeins in the weaving system that reflect someone with 200 craftsmanship/tailoring. i'm losing twice.

finally, there's the point that while the tailoring prices of objects made with pelts/hides/etc under your level should go down, then the price of objects made with ones at or above your level should go up. if i have to risk not just having the skill to hunt something, but also the skill to skin and tailor it, then the price should definitely go back to what it previously was before the first tweak.
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With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:
Attempting to apply your overused troll pic doesn't make it so.

Push for more critters to skin, not some stopgap measure.

Besides, I don't think there's ever been a game with a decent player-based economy. At least I've never heard of any. I doubt this game will succeed where so many others have failed.


Oh, we could do it. People just wouldn't like it.
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