FAQ Log in
Search Profile
Memberlist Usergroups
Log in to check your private messages
Register
Jump To: Haelrahv Main Site | My Haelrahv Account | Haelrahv Play Page
Loss of Invoked Spell at Movement Change? (PVP Impact) -long
Post new topic   Reply to topic
The Official Haelrahv Message Forum Forum Index » Magic and Psionics » Loss of Invoked Spell at Movement Change? (PVP Impact) -long
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Platinumyan
Master Plush ;(


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 110

 Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: Loss of Invoked Spell at Movement Change? (PVP Impact) -long
Reply with quote

I know I've been gone on vacation for a month or so, but even when reading old news I don't see any mention of why this was implemented. To be specific I'm talking about how now if you invoke an ability, but then leave the room, you lose that prep and must start over. Previously, invocations could be taken with you etc.

Now, I would imagine this was put in for balance reasons, but I really do feel this was overkill on a situation. What I see the result as being, is a Psionist can no longer become the aggressor in a PVP fight. Granted, if its a spar and everyone is on friendly terms, sure, you can all stay in the same room and fight, but in reality movement is the key to victory in any true encounter.

In the 10+ years ive been playing muds, I've always found 3 important factors for PVP. The first being instant abilities, the second stealth and the last defense. Instant attacks (currently on room entering only ranged attacks qualify) always rule. Look at any pvp event in recent history and think of who owned. The second factor stealth can be used to pull favor in someone’s favor, such as being able to move in and out of rooms with reasonable safety..but combining stealth and instant attacks still must be considered overwhelming. Last would be defense, as the only way to overcome the above would be enough defensive ability to survive the lack of stealth or instant attacks. A good example here would be a melee fighter who can take the 10 shots before they even get a chance to fight back.

What I see currently in Haelrahv is a Ranged>Magic>Melee. Having taken apart multiple melee fighters at least a dozen or more levels above me, im confident on the the last part, and haven never survived a moment around a Ranged user, I feel decent about the first half of the equation. Granted, those with stealth give themselves advantage, so someone with magic and stealth could certainly beat someone who only used ranged.

Again, I must point out I’m talking about combat that includes moving rooms.

Back to the original point of this post. Ill assume mages now have the same limitation with prepping a spell and moving. What this now equals is an even bigger gap in the Ranged>Magic portion. I as a psionist would never dream of chasing a ranged user in combat. Why? Because they have 8 seconds of free attacks before I can respond (with my own defining abilities).

Any wise ranged user would train high searching skills, move to the room they want to control and wait. As soon as their foe enters, snipe a couple shots (granted they are not as great as full aimed shots, but a hit is a hit and in the random nature of our systems do this a few times and it still works just fine) then move. Rinse and repeat. Someone without ranged would combat this how? Walk away? Beg them to stand and fight? I dare not even imagine being limited to Melee only. Who would you fight?

Of course a psionist can stand in a room and have a strong chance to invoke over and over and hope that when the foe enters they are prepared to focus on them, but this hardly equals the same as being able to type fire %name.

God forbid I mention:

waitfor %1
put fire %1
pause
put fire %1
pause
move %2
put hide

Of course, all emails should include suggestions, so mine would be:

Faster prep times for mages and Psionist - Does not resolve base issue

Only loss of the second half of the invocation. Perhaps adding a time after movement to regain focus (3seconds?) - Still doesn’t get rid of advantage of ranged.

Give melee classes great additions to resistances and defense - Only viable solution I see to defending fast ranged users, and semi fast magic users for that matter. Ask the current guardians their thoughts on it.


In closing, I realize this email focuses heavily on the pvp aspect and I realize that pvp is not available at the moment, however I feel this has a large impact on the future and can be applied at least on some levels to PVE.


Thanks for your time and thoughts,

Yan
_________________
You lay a hand upon a post with no constructive comments and full of fact-less argumentative diatribe and focus intently upon it.

This object amazingly decreases one's Logic skill.
This object amazingly enhances one's Flaming skill.
This object considerably enhances one's Annoyance skill.

You sigh.
You say, “Great, another one.”
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:59 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Thanks for the well thought out post. My response is by contrast going to be more shooting from the hip but I'll try to address the points you made.

The change was put in to prevent casters from prepping a spell and waiting for that prep to complete, then moving into a room and blasting away. This was intended to be a balancing move for PvE as we don't really focus our development on PvP at this time.

While ranged users can snap shot, they face heavy penalties for doing so. As of today's updates those penalties are actually far worse. Previously their chance to hit with a snap shot (or low aim shot) took a significant loss. However at this point they also lose much of the punch of their attack.

While it is certainly possible they could overwhelm others by spamming shots, hoping they hit, and accepting they will do very little damage per shot, it is a poor use of their weapons.

Invoke times for Psi abilities will be changing. Right now they are static, however, like magic spells, they will be changed to vary per power. Some combat powers will have short (though not instant) invoke times. Short enough that in fact one could even invoke a power, wait for a ranged aggressor who is popping in and out to return, and then simply blast them as they enter.

It's also noteworthy that spells and powers can be prepped/invoked from hiding or invisibility, which you can use to your favor if need be.

The final matter would be melee. This isn't the focus of your post but you did devote some time to it so I'll get into that briefly.

In a nutshell, I realize we need to make efforts to balance melee with ranged. This is rather difficult because of the inherent strategic advantages that exist in the use of ranged weapons that allow free movement from room to room.

We recently added a couple of attacks, JUMP KICK and FLYING KICK for Guardians which allow instant engagement/attack. From there, I'm sure we will implement other attacks and methods.

In addition, there are other measures we could put into place specifically for PvP (since PvE encounters don't involve creatures running from players to avoid engagement like players would do to players). For instance, we could in theory add reactions when a player leaves a room after attacking just seconds ago.

As we progress into developing PvP more as part of the game (and it is an integral part of the game's social philosophy) I am sure we will focus on these issues more.
_________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Platinumyan
Master Plush ;(


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 110

 Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

HR-Trevor wrote:
Thanks for the well thought out post. My response is by contrast going to be more shooting from the hip but I'll try to address the points you made.

The change was put in to prevent casters from prepping a spell and waiting for that prep to complete, then moving into a room and blasting away. This was intended to be a balancing move for PvE as we don't really focus our development on PvP at this time.

While ranged users can snap shot, they face heavy penalties for doing so. As of today's updates those penalties are actually far worse. Previously their chance to hit with a snap shot (or low aim shot) took a significant loss. However at this point they also lose much of the punch of their attack.

While it is certainly possible they could overwhelm others by spamming shots, hoping they hit, and accepting they will do very little damage per shot, it is a poor use of their weapons.

Invoke times for Psi abilities will be changing. Right now they are static, however, like magic spells, they will be changed to vary per power. Some combat powers will have short (though not instant) invoke times. Short enough that in fact one could even invoke a power, wait for a ranged aggressor who is popping in and out to return, and then simply blast them as they enter.

It's also noteworthy that spells and powers can be prepped/invoked from hiding or invisibility, which you can use to your favor if need be.

The final matter would be melee. This isn't the focus of your post but you did devote some time to it so I'll get into that briefly.

In a nutshell, I realize we need to make efforts to balance melee with ranged. This is rather difficult because of the inherent strategic advantages that exist in the use of ranged weapons that allow free movement from room to room.

We recently added a couple of attacks, JUMP KICK and FLYING KICK for Guardians which allow instant engagement/attack. From there, I'm sure we will implement other attacks and methods.

In addition, there are other measures we could put into place specifically for PvP (since PvE encounters don't involve creatures running from players to avoid engagement like players would do to players). For instance, we could in theory add reactions when a player leaves a room after attacking just seconds ago.

As we progress into developing PvP more as part of the game (and it is an integral part of the game's social philosophy) I am sure we will focus on these issues more.


Let me start by thanking you for your quick reply. From the hip typically includes far more honesty then any other method, so its very difficult to complain.

In regards to the penalties to ranged. If they would indeed have such difficulty, then I would agree that it was a step in the right direction. My only comment on this would be I much prefer enhancment to the weaker rather then nerfing of the powerful. I've seen the nerf bat way too many times and frankly I think its over used by most. I relize im defending the change made to the very type of fighter I am saying would be most difficult, but just on principle level alone, I never did like nerfs.

I dont know how close to impossible it would be for a ranged user to "pop" shots at specific targets, but it would be very well time spent to fire a few fast ones at a Psionist's head. As it is, one (decent) hit and we are worthless in that regard. But that's another issue I think.

As for the references to psi abilities, Im pleased to hear (though I know you've mentioned it before) that RTs will drop, and I will be eager to see spells such as blind (defensive in nature) to become reasonably swift.

I also totally agree regarding the prep/invoke from hiding and currently see any magic/psi user who does not expect to use stealth to be hindering themself.

I would like to remention one suggestion as you didn't comment on it directly. I do think it would be a happier medium with the change made and what I atleast would like to see:

Quote:
Only loss of the second half of the invocation. Perhaps adding a time after movement to regain focus (3seconds?) - Still doesn’t get rid of advantage of ranged.


I invision if I was using piercing stare, and it was a 3/6, invoking to completion, then stepping to the next room and having to rewait for the 3 seconds before being prepared to focus on a target. Just a thought.

In regards to melee. I feel for you in having to decide a viable solution and would suggest giving guardians huge boosts to their resistances atleast to magic and psi as I know two who were very displeased with their spars with me and I personally feel it was a class limitation that directly lead to it.

I have quite a few more ideas, but I hate to overwhelm any one email.

Thanks again for you fast reply and I look forward to everyone elses thoughts.

Yan
_________________
You lay a hand upon a post with no constructive comments and full of fact-less argumentative diatribe and focus intently upon it.

This object amazingly decreases one's Logic skill.
This object amazingly enhances one's Flaming skill.
This object considerably enhances one's Annoyance skill.

You sigh.
You say, “Great, another one.”
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:15 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Quote:
I invision if I was using piercing stare, and it was a 3/6, invoking to completion, then stepping to the next room and having to rewait for the 3 seconds before being prepared to focus on a target. Just a thought.


I don't think I'm fully grasping the concept. Are you saying if you were at 1/6 and you moved into another room, you'd then have to invoke for 5 instead of 6, since you did 1 already in the other room? If that's a yes, then are you also suggesting a max of "half credit" so you could get 3/6 but not 4/6?

Quote:
In regards to melee. I feel for you in having to decide a viable solution and would suggest giving guardians huge boosts to their resistances atleast to magic and psi as I know two who were very displeased with their spars with me and I personally feel it was a class limitation that directly lead to it.


Just a note, Guardians are less affected as a whole than other classes once they get jump kick. Non-Guardian melee fighters or low level Guardians are most affected by the existing conditions.
_________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Platinumyan
Master Plush ;(


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 110

 Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:58 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think I'm fully grasping the concept. Are you saying if you were at 1/6 and you moved into another room, you'd then have to invoke for 5 instead of 6, since you did 1 already in the other room? If that's a yes, then are you also suggesting a max of "half credit" so you could get 3/6 but not 4/6?


To clarify, and I hate that im not able to get in game to get the exact terms used, every ability has 2 numbers attached. In my mind its always been 2 stages; Time to prep, and time to actually focus. For piercing stare, its currently 4 to prep and 8 total. So if I "invoke" piercing stare, I get 4 seconds RT then have to wait 4 more before its fully prepared to be cast. What im suggesting is that after the 4 seconds rt, if we moved, get a message that in my haste to exit ill need a moment to refocus my time on my invocation. This would require 4 seconds (Full time for prep - rt), at which time I would regain my ability to focus the invocation on a target. In effect, at the current numbers, Noone could ever enter a room and cast piercing stare within 4 seconds of arrival (this could even take focus when "retaining" an ability). I do hope that clarifies and doesnt just confuse things more.


Quote:
Just a note, Guardians are less affected as a whole than other classes once they get jump kick. Non-Guardian melee fighters or low level Guardians are most affected by the existing conditions.


I would imagine thats if they get the jumpkick off in time. Last night Yan beat 2 guardians 15-17 over his head when expecting to not have a chance. One with a cast of paralyze from hiding, and the other with a piercing stare that took out their leg in the first pulse. Im sure they wanted to jump kick at that point, but neither had more then a moment or two. I just empathize with them and feel that the limitation of no range is definatly for the most dedicated of player.

Yan
_________________
You lay a hand upon a post with no constructive comments and full of fact-less argumentative diatribe and focus intently upon it.

This object amazingly decreases one's Logic skill.
This object amazingly enhances one's Flaming skill.
This object considerably enhances one's Annoyance skill.

You sigh.
You say, “Great, another one.”
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

 Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:01 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

i'm pretty sure psionic spells like paralyze weren't coded to be in-line with all the other combat changes yet.
_________________
A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message
HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Quote:
This would require 4 seconds (Full time for prep - rt), at which time I would regain my ability to focus the invocation on a target. In effect, at the current numbers, Noone could ever enter a room and cast piercing stare within 4 seconds of arrival (this could even take focus when "retaining" an ability). I do hope that clarifies and doesnt just confuse things more.


If you have to wait 4 seconds how's this different from the current setup other than being able to actually type the invoke XYZ part before you move? You still have to wait 4 seconds then focus it.
_________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato

-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Platinumyan
Master Plush ;(


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 110

 Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 6:17 pm    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Quote:
If you have to wait 4 seconds how's this different from the current setup other than being able to actually type the invoke XYZ part before you move? You still have to wait 4 seconds then focus it.


Closing your eyes, you begin to draw into your mind and invoke the Piercing Stare power.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Spell preparation time: 8 sec.

Currently, you have to wait 8 for "spell preparation time." Im sugesting you maintain in this case 4 seconds (length of the rt) so after moving you would only have to wait 4. Half the time in this case.

Basically, saving half the prep time and not having to actually retype invoke *. Worth it in my book.

Thanks for following up

Yan
_________________
You lay a hand upon a post with no constructive comments and full of fact-less argumentative diatribe and focus intently upon it.

This object amazingly decreases one's Logic skill.
This object amazingly enhances one's Flaming skill.
This object considerably enhances one's Annoyance skill.

You sigh.
You say, “Great, another one.”
 Back to top »
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
The Official Haelrahv Message Forum Forum Index » Magic and Psionics » Loss of Invoked Spell at Movement Change? (PVP Impact) -long
Post new topic   Reply to topic All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Top Index




Solaris phpBB theme/template by Jakob Persson
Copyright © Jakob Persson 2003



Powered by phpBB 2.0.22 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group