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HR-Mickey
Cloverfield Monster
Joined: 24 Nov 2002
Posts: 1844
Location: I've Got No 'billy
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 Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Warner wrote: |
then where's the reward in training unarmed past
the point to get bodyslam? (read:why waste points?) |
50 points in Unarmed Combat will never hit the opponent with 200 in evasion.
_________________
Mickey Brunner
To make a long story short, don't tell it.
I may be going nowhere, but I'm going nowhere fast.
---
Kelvin Watt says, "I stopped drinking coke when no longer drinking beer didn't make my gut disappear."
---
Kaelin Rae says, "Wait a minute..."
Kaelin Rae says, "You mean they have a COKE machine that dispenses beer."
Kaelin Rae nods to you.
Kaelin Rae says, "Greaser."
Kaelin Rae looks at you and sighs. |
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Warner
Sneaky Locksmithiness
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 213
Location: The Armpit of the Universe
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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right...like i wasnt hitting beetles with 7 thrown earlier?
stuns do amazingly fun things! (like drastically reduce defense)
so again, the point of training beyond bodyslam/hiptoss are?
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>You allow Stilldawn to undress you. |
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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy
Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I've always taken the weakness of additional hits to be extra stacks in a cumulative flurry. So if a 'good' hit was worth 20 damage (just using abstract numbers), then
A good hit to the right eye!
... another hit to the wing!
... another hit to the head!
... another hit to the right eye!
would be 80 points of scattered (or potentially concentrated) damage, compared to a 50 point 'serious' hit. |
This is correct. The reason the pummel may look weak is because its total damage is divided amongst its hits. Since pummel has two variations (2 hits or 4 hits) based on whether both hands are empty and each version has independent roundtime, for sake of determining appropriate power I used a 2 hit pummel so that you achieve appropriate power per hit.
Note that the amount of damage you do per hit is relatively unimportant. If the attack is quick or you perform multiple hits/shots per attack, you're going to even out on damage basically.
All attack/weapon balancing was done on a damage-per-second basis, not damage per hit.
| Quote: |
Is one of the goals to encourage more group hunting?
What are the goals of the changes, so we can understand better. And how was the way combat was structured before not accomplishing those goals? At least then, we can suggest alternatives and options. |
Yes, I would say it's a goal to encourage group hunting, it always has been. But it's not a goal to require it. The prime goal of these changes, however, consists of a couple of things:
- Balance out damage so that the time needed to kill things is not so dramatically variable. Previously killing things very clearly varied from a hit or two to many hits, depending on the situation and it was more possible to stack certain combat considerations in one's favor than desirable, to achieve very speedy kills almost non stop.
- Reduce the overall level of super quick kills, both players killing NPC's quickly and NPC's killing players quickly.
- Reduce the role of stats in their effect on damage so that players or NPC's with very high strength of perception don't do overwhelmingly high damage in a single blow.
- Reduce damage so that more blows are likely to be traded per encounter, thereby giving NPC's a fairer chance and enhancing the role of defenses, stances, the engagement system etc as considerations in combat.
All of these goals are tied to the level of damage output of both NPC's and players.
| Quote: |
| and if the outlook on pummel is that it is a "normal punch" then where's the reward in training unarmed past the point to get bodyslam? (read:why waste points?) |
Firstly, you're clearly not wasting points. Anyone who is going to routinely use a certain weapon is going to train that weapon to max to get the most out of it. If you were satisfied with just punching under the premise it is as good as pummel, I don't think you'd find punching very effective if you never trained unarmed, since you'd not be able to hit anything. You're going to train unarmed and learning to pummel requires nothing more than that.
Beyond that however, not every attack has the same damage per second rating. The factors that I applied in determining this include:
- Does the attack have a higher RT than counterpart attacks? If so, DPS is raised some.
- Does the attack provide special benefits like increased chance to hit or stun bonuses? If so, DPS is lowered some.
- Does the attack carry penalties like a reduction in chance to strike? If so, DPS is raised some.
- Does the attack require higher levels of training than counterpart attacks? If so, DPS is raised some.
Pummel has a higher DPS than punch. The damage per pummel may not seem much more than a punch but it is in fact more.
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato
-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy |
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HR-Mickey
Cloverfield Monster
Joined: 24 Nov 2002
Posts: 1844
Location: I've Got No 'billy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Warner wrote: |
stuns do amazingly fun things! (like drastically reduce defense)
so again, the point of training beyond bodyslam/hiptoss are? |
Did you stun it by throwing something at it, or did you hit it with an attack you normally train and then throw something at it?
Even with superb numbers, stats will only get you so far. I'd wager you whatever amount you wanted that you'd never hit, say, with 7 in Thrown Weapons even if he were stunned, prone, blinded and on fire.
Edit: And speaking of Thekko, these changes should, if anything, hearten players interested in hunting him; it means his patented quad-pummel is no longer the roiling meat-grinder it used to be.
_________________
Mickey Brunner
To make a long story short, don't tell it.
I may be going nowhere, but I'm going nowhere fast.
---
Kelvin Watt says, "I stopped drinking coke when no longer drinking beer didn't make my gut disappear."
---
Kaelin Rae says, "Wait a minute..."
Kaelin Rae says, "You mean they have a COKE machine that dispenses beer."
Kaelin Rae nods to you.
Kaelin Rae says, "Greaser."
Kaelin Rae looks at you and sighs. |
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Warner
Sneaky Locksmithiness
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 213
Location: The Armpit of the Universe
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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actually Autae was stunning them with his spammed 2 second cast flame wave
| Code: |
50 points in Unarmed Combat will [b]never[/b] hit the opponent with 200 in evasion. |
with combat being nerfed so far
i don't even wanna think about training anything combatwise
it's becoming a glorified chat room to me with occasional interruptions by people who "know the game and built the game" groovy and all.
You may know all the numbers stats skills ect
but you don't know all the answers. Maybe a test instance could be used
to test these screwed up changes to combat before dumping them on the
general populace and going "here we did this in hopes of balancing this,
now please go out kill/get disappointed/collect data/ect, and see where
we screwed up and post on the boards"
if thats going to be the case i want on the payroll
[/quote]
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>You allow Stilldawn to undress you. |
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Warner wrote: |
| if thats going to be the case i want on the payroll! |
sadly, your pay is going toward maintaining the server, upgrades, and so on.
trevor gladly sent you a free account though!
_________________
A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.
Last edited by soundless on Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HR-Mickey
Cloverfield Monster
Joined: 24 Nov 2002
Posts: 1844
Location: I've Got No 'billy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
You may know all the numbers stats skills ect
but you don't know all the answers. |
Look, man, we're all trying to be friendly here. But if you want me to arrange a 200 skill-point mob for you to fight with a 50 combat skill to prove me wrong, I'll be happy to apologize if I'm incorrect.
_________________
Mickey Brunner
To make a long story short, don't tell it.
I may be going nowhere, but I'm going nowhere fast.
---
Kelvin Watt says, "I stopped drinking coke when no longer drinking beer didn't make my gut disappear."
---
Kaelin Rae says, "Wait a minute..."
Kaelin Rae says, "You mean they have a COKE machine that dispenses beer."
Kaelin Rae nods to you.
Kaelin Rae says, "Greaser."
Kaelin Rae looks at you and sighs. |
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Warner
Sneaky Locksmithiness
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 213
Location: The Armpit of the Universe
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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by that statement i meant
stop crunching the numbers so hard and playtest the game
without knowing every stats involved (inotherwords player prospective)
everytime you level a change on the game the players have to
a:post a zillion times about what makes the change suck/unbalance/unfair
b:scramble to reachieve some semblence of what their characters
did before the change to maintain rp
now if it makes you happy to arrange a mob with 200 evasion against my
84 unarmed then go for it
at worst it'll add 1 to my Restores : 0 count
_________________
>You allow Stilldawn to undress you. |
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HR-Mickey
Cloverfield Monster
Joined: 24 Nov 2002
Posts: 1844
Location: I've Got No 'billy
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Warner wrote: |
by that statement i meant
stop crunching the numbers so hard and playtest the game
without knowing every stats involved (inotherwords player prospective) |
This is where I point out to you that you're making blatantly crass assumptions with absolutely no insight into my perspective -- which, I'll have you know, includes a liberal heap of player-side view.
_________________
Mickey Brunner
To make a long story short, don't tell it.
I may be going nowhere, but I'm going nowhere fast.
---
Kelvin Watt says, "I stopped drinking coke when no longer drinking beer didn't make my gut disappear."
---
Kaelin Rae says, "Wait a minute..."
Kaelin Rae says, "You mean they have a COKE machine that dispenses beer."
Kaelin Rae nods to you.
Kaelin Rae says, "Greaser."
Kaelin Rae looks at you and sighs. |
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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy
Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
top crunching the numbers so hard and playtest the game
without knowing every stats involved (inotherwords player prospective)
everytime you level a change on the game the players have to
a:post a zillion times about what makes the change suck/unbalance/unfair
b:scramble to reachieve some semblence of what their characters
did before the change to maintain rp |
Please explain your qualifications for designing a gaming environment and maintaining combat balance. I'd like to know more about the person who feels they understand these concepts more than I do.
_________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato
-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy
Last edited by HR-Trevor on Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: |
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so, you do realize the GMs test it before they release it, but nomatter how logical it seems to them, players will always have questions/comments/gripes/etc, right?
it's not like things are released without any testing.
_________________
A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death. |
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Warner
Sneaky Locksmithiness
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 213
Location: The Armpit of the Universe
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:07 am Post subject: |
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If you wanna discuss it Trevor i'll gladly speak with you on AIM
_________________
>You allow Stilldawn to undress you. |
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Morgana
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 264
Location: Right here...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Mages and Psionics went through this when spells were weakened. Unfortunately there was not many of us affected and took until we all blabbed on COMM how awful it had become for magic users. And things were tweaked. It took a good two or three weeks. A couple of spells were retuned and reintroduced.
I'm sure he'll be watching everyone hunt and will do some tweaks. This is not like that other place. They do listen and ponder and sometimes tweak to make it better. I'm not saying I'm thrilled, or happy with everything with spells. It is always hard to go from one shot/hit/cast kills to six to twelve shots/hits/casts.
And please don't say it's to make it more realistic, when I was told that I'm trying to put reality into arguing why I would suddenly forget a spell I've used for 40 levels.
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Warner
Sneaky Locksmithiness
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 213
Location: The Armpit of the Universe
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:11 am Post subject: |
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balanced is what you find in the GM's theosaurus for "realistic"
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>You allow Stilldawn to undress you. |
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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy
Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:15 am Post subject: |
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These changes are definitely not for realism. If realism were intended, we'd have a series of weapons that destroyed most things in one hit, and a series of weapons that were nearly completely useless.
The changes are in fact for the opposite, to give weapons flavor but to balance them so that all weapons are desirable. While one weapon may be better than another, the difference isn't so staggering as to make either weapon obsolete or useless.
_________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato
-- Trevor Rage / Rich Mondy |
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