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Some of my thoughts before the meeting
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Tylen
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Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

 Post Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:16 pm    Post subject: Some of my thoughts before the meeting
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I may have more later, but I figured I should post some now.


Cases: Well, they're the Bureaucratic version of converting RT into money/exp. Less exp than foraging, but I haven't really compared the money. It gets a little difficult when studying time can occasionally get up into the 5-10 minute (or 1 hour+) range.

I think ARGUE is broken with these since I win 99.999999% of cases using PERSUADE or INTIMIDATE, but I've yet to argue my way to victory.

This system should really have some appeal to it once we're able to defend (or maybe prosecute?) PCs. Oh yeah, and I asked a long time ago for another arbitrator.


Brokering: Not much to say here. It would be great if it could work with items in the pawnshop (although that would mean you'd probably only be able to broker individual items). Oh also, if we could get exp for brokering with ourselves.


Permits: Ok so far we have vault expansions, marriage licenses, and divorce decrees. Paper pushing definitely makes sense for a Bureaucrat. I don't really have any complaints from my side. But if I were someone else, I might be worried if the only Bureaucrat who could file divorces went on vacation for a month (you know how quickly some people go through relationships...).


Interest: Yeah it got to be a little excessive before. For those who don't know how it worked, if it switched back today I'd be getting around $130k interest every 18 hours instead of being stuck at the $10k cap.

But having said that, I think interest was cut far too drastically. It caps out at a fairly low level so it doesn't grow with the character. And if you consider it as a percentage, it just gets worse as time passes.

I really don't know what thoughts went into the change since there was no warning or discussion before it happened. I'm hoping with a guru this can be looked at again.

I think ideally I would suggest just lowering the interest rate (even putting a cap on it) and removing the cap on total interest altogether. But since there's the whole playability thing to consider, probably just let the cap increase with level (say $500/level). And extend that 1 day login requirement.


Miscellaneous: I still think we should have some 'official' way of adding on something like a service charge to transactions. With brokering, we could keep a percentage (say up to the amount of our bonus). With permits, we'd just have an option to add to the cost of filing the proper documents (this would fit in easier with vault expansions than how marriages and divorces are handled now). Personally, I'd find this more professional than tipping, although I could see how the benefit compared to the coding effort wouldn't make this high priority.

I'd also like to say I absolutely hate the current commodity system. But that's just as much a non-Bureaucrat system as it involves us, so this might not be the right place to discuss it.


Future: I think real estate deeds would be perfect for us in the permit department. Maybe we could even be mortgage brokers if someone is feeling ambitious with coding.

Another thing (for those evil Bureaucrats among us) would be some white-collar crimes. Embezzlement, fraud, counterfeiting, etc. And if the latest skill proposal doesn't pass, I think we should get stealing as a triple-trainable skill.
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** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:54 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
Interest: Yeah it got to be a little excessive before. For those who don't know how it worked, if it switched back today I'd be getting around $130k interest every 18 hours instead of being stuck at the $10k cap.

But having said that, I think interest was cut far too drastically. It caps out at a fairly low level so it doesn't grow with the character. And if you consider it as a percentage, it just gets worse as time passes.

I really don't know what thoughts went into the change since there was no warning or discussion before it happened. I'm hoping with a guru this can be looked at again.

I think ideally I would suggest just lowering the interest rate (even putting a cap on it) and removing the cap on total interest altogether. But since there's the whole playability thing to consider, probably just let the cap increase with level (say $500/level). And extend that 1 day login requirement.


I really think $10,000 per day is a nice chunk of change to get for absolutely no effort on your part. Your money isn't even tied up if you return it before the next rate calculation. $500 per level is $50,000 per day at level 100. In 20 days you'd have a free million and you didn't do anything to get it.

I can see opportunities to make better money at some sort of a cost, be it long term CD's that mature, stocks you could just as easily lose money on, etc, but the interest system is a freebie. Especially given it's for a profession that "specializes" in keeping a nice bankroll.

Quote:
I'd also like to say I absolutely hate the current commodity system. But that's just as much a non-Bureaucrat system as it involves us, so this might not be the right place to discuss it.


I hate the commodity system to. I'd like to change it, but I'd probably really piss off some people if I did, because I think forageables are either too valuable or too easy to get, take your pick. I'd set maximums each item is worth and volatility ratings so some items crash or surge on their own a lot, while others stay more flat. Regardless, this is a huge change and some people would really hate having to give more thought to the process.

Quote:
Future: I think real estate deeds would be perfect for us in the permit department. Maybe we could even be mortgage brokers if someone is feeling ambitious with coding.


You don't know this yet, but well, you will now. When homes come out, only a bureaucrat can secure a home for someone. Right now it's level 20 but if the proposal goes in, this could go up some. There is no mortgage process though.

Quote:
Another thing (for those evil Bureaucrats among us) would be some white-collar crimes. Embezzlement, fraud, counterfeiting, etc. And if the latest skill proposal doesn't pass, I think we should get stealing as a triple-trainable skill.


I can see that, but I think stealing is definitely not a Bureaucrat skill. There's just no justification for an everyday businessman or politician to be an expert in pickpocketing, cat burglary, safe cracking, or anything remotely along those veins, IMO.
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HR-Rikiar
Bureaucrat Guru


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
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 Post Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:30 pm    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:

Cases: Well, they're the Bureaucratic version of converting RT into money/exp. Less exp than foraging, but I haven't really compared the money. It gets a little difficult when studying time can occasionally get up into the 5-10 minute (or 1 hour+) range.

I think ARGUE is broken with these since I win 99.999999% of cases using PERSUADE or INTIMIDATE, but I've yet to argue my way to victory.

This system should really have some appeal to it once we're able to defend (or maybe prosecute?) PCs. Oh yeah, and I asked a long time ago for another arbitrator.


-I've got some ideas here, they'll be discussed at the meeting (I think you'll like.)
-I agree with having different arbitrators with different "personalities" which react differently to different tactics and possibly being tied into alignment. I'll have to talk to Trevor on the alignment sytem though.

Tylen wrote:

Brokering: Not much to say here. It would be great if it could work with items in the pawnshop (although that would mean you'd probably only be able to broker individual items). Oh also, if we could get exp for brokering with ourselves.


-To be honest, I haven't given much thought to brokering. I'd be interested to hear any ideas you have on the topic, but most any changes that happen here will be low priority unless its something revolutionary and I decide Crats just have to have it.

Tylen wrote:

Permits: Ok so far we have vault expansions, marriage licenses, and divorce decrees. Paper pushing definitely makes sense for a Bureaucrat. I don't really have any complaints from my side. But if I were someone else, I might be worried if the only Bureaucrat who could file divorces went on vacation for a month (you know how quickly some people go through relationships...).


-Divorces suck in general. Guess they'll have to deal with it if they want the divorce to be legal. Unless there's a huge revolt against this being the only way to get a divorce, I'm not going to change it. I am making some slight changes to the divorce process (abandonment situations where a spouse just leaves the game and contested divorces) both situations are a medium priority at the moment as I don't see either situation occuring in the immediate future.



Tylen wrote:

Interest: Yeah it got to be a little excessive before. For those who don't know how it worked, if it switched back today I'd be getting around $130k interest every 18 hours instead of being stuck at the $10k cap.

But having said that, I think interest was cut far too drastically. It caps out at a fairly low level so it doesn't grow with the character. And if you consider it as a percentage, it just gets worse as time passes.

I really don't know what thoughts went into the change since there was no warning or discussion before it happened. I'm hoping with a guru this can be looked at again.

I think ideally I would suggest just lowering the interest rate (even putting a cap on it) and removing the cap on total interest altogether. But since there's the whole playability thing to consider, probably just let the cap increase with level (say $500/level). And extend that 1 day login requirement.


-I have to agree with Trevor on this one (see his post above). I may however do something to create a variable intrest rate tat caps out slightly higher levels, but the interest rates themselves might be much lower. I'm not sure what the current intrest rate is, I haven't had a chance to look at the numbers. For an arbitrary number, lets say its 10% now. I'd probably lower the overall interest rate so that it varies between 1-5% but caps out around 15-20k. Again, I haven't looked at numbers or discussed this with Trevor at all. This is actually my first time even thinking about the banking system. I like the idea of long term investments and also extending the requirement to recieve interest on the account. As I see it, only those who are a Crat as a primary character, or even a secondary character (who play a decent amount of time) recieve interest. As it stands now, I've seen players log in a crat near an interest pulse and play long enough to qualify for the interest and log ribht back off. I'd like to do away with this practice, if not totally, then partially.

Tylen wrote:

Miscellaneous: I still think we should have some 'official' way of adding on something like a service charge to transactions. With brokering, we could keep a percentage (say up to the amount of our bonus). With permits, we'd just have an option to add to the cost of filing the proper documents (this would fit in easier with vault expansions than how marriages and divorces are handled now). Personally, I'd find this more professional than tipping, although I could see how the benefit compared to the coding effort wouldn't make this high priority.


-I don't think I agree with this one. If it were to be even considered, the customer would HAVE to know about the service charge prior to any transactions and I'm not sure how to do that at the moment without making it a totally OOC thing (which I'm loathe to do). We can discuss at the meeting if you have ideas on this process.

Tylen wrote:

I'd also like to say I absolutely hate the current commodity system. But that's just as much a non-Bureaucrat system as it involves us, so this might not be the right place to discuss it.


-Ditto, and I agree even. I'd like to see it much more realistic, some things are in the works (brainstorms only) that relate to the commodity system that could make things really fun and interesting.


Tylen wrote:

Future: "Stuff"


-Refer to Trevor's post on that topic.

Tylen wrote:

Another thing (for those evil Bureaucrats among us) would be some white-collar crimes. Embezzlement, fraud, counterfeiting, etc. And if the latest skill proposal doesn't pass, I think we should get stealing as a triple-trainable skill.


-Crimes for all professions are being looked at as well as a player/automated justice system that, if we can pull it off, I think people will very much enjoy.
-Stealing is not something Bureaucrats should be able to do, that's Agent territory.

Meeting starts in one hour, so most folks won't get a chance to read this til after it occurs. Oops?
[/b]
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Tylen
Alpha Antifemale


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

 Post Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:53 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Rikiar wrote:
Meeting starts in one hour, so most folks won't get a chance to read this til after it occurs. Oops?


I think people tend to be board monkeys enough they'll have seen it. And they don't really need to have read this to have their own ideas. Or more accurately, I meant to post sooner but kept putting it off til today. Cool

I'll post some revised thoughts after the meeting.
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** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]
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HR-Morrigan



Joined: 06 Sep 2002
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Location: Trooper Tower, Titan City

 Post Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:02 pm    Post subject:
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I think ARGUE is broken with these since I win 99.999999% of cases using PERSUADE or INTIMIDATE, but I've yet to argue my way to victory.


It's not broken, it just that with ARGUE you are using only your knowledge of the law (ie your law skill) to argue that case. The other two also take your persuasive abilities into account through your persuasion or intimidation skill, depending on which you use. ARGUE is supposed to simulate the straight by the books lawyer, using the merits of the case alone to win his/her arguement. It's a lot easier to win over a judge when you throw some personality in there Wink I'm not sure if it will really be an issue when Rikiar updates the case system.
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Tylen
Alpha Antifemale


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:29 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Morrigan wrote:
It's not broken, it just that with ARGUE you are using only your knowledge of the law (ie your law skill) to argue that case. The other two also take your persuasive abilities into account through your persuasion or intimidation skill, depending on which you use. ARGUE is supposed to simulate the straight by the books lawyer, using the merits of the case alone to win his/her arguement. It's a lot easier to win over a judge when you throw some personality in there Wink I'm not sure if it will really be an issue when Rikiar updates the case system.


I'd accept that answer, but...

Code:
>argue case with marielle
Roundtime: 15 sec.
Arbitrator Marielle Adjude says, "Yes, Aesal Anari-Idia, I have read over the facts presented in the Oshosh case."
 
The Arbitrator says, "The logic of your argument seems faulty, but please continue."
>argue case with marielle
Roundtime: 15 sec.
The Arbitrator says, "The logic of your argument seems faulty, but please continue."
>argue case with marielle
Roundtime: 15 sec.
The Arbitrator says, "The logic of your argument seems faulty, but please continue."

>argue case with marielle
Roundtime: 15 sec.
The Arbitrator says, "Give me a moment to deliberate on your case, and I will inform you of my decision."
 
The Arbitrator studies the information contained within the case folder and reads over some of her notes.
 
The Arbitrator lifts her head and looks you in the eyes.
 
The Arbitrator says, "You have failed to provide any reason for your client to go free.  Your client will pay the maximum pentalty allowed by Llanfair law," as she slams her gavel down and takes the case folder from you.
 
The client glares at you as the guards come to drag off their newly assigned prisoner.


Charisma : (143)
Law : (232)

My Law is capped so there's nothing I can do to increase it. Just how much more do I need to do to ARGUE to a win?

And yeah I realize that it doesn't matter since I can use either of the other two commands. But I still think it's broken.
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** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]
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HR-Morrigan



Joined: 06 Sep 2002
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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:29 pm    Post subject:
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Hmm, yeah that does need some adjusting. Its been a long time since I tested any cases. I just wanted to add that Myst did most of the work on this system before he left, all I did was tweak it a bit to make it workable. His calcs seemed ok when I ran test initially, but obviously they need to be updated. Also, cases are tailored to fit an individual through certain critera when you study them, so as you get better, the cases you are assigned get harder.

On a side note, you didn't mention your intellect. I looked it up and in your case its more than sufficient to do the job, but it does play a major part in your success.
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Tylen
Alpha Antifemale


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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:59 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Morrigan wrote:
Hmm, yeah that does need some adjusting. Its been a long time since I tested any cases. I just wanted to add that Myst did most of the work on this system before he left, all I did was tweak it a bit to make it workable. His calcs seemed ok when I ran test initially, but obviously they need to be updated. Also, cases are tailored to fit an individual through certain critera when you study them, so as you get better, the cases you are assigned get harder.

On a side note, you didn't mention your intellect. I looked it up and in your case its more than sufficient to do the job, but it does play a major part in your success.


Well that's interesting to know it depends on intellect too. I kinda suspected but couldn't find anywhere that mentioned it.
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** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]
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HR-Rikiar
Bureaucrat Guru


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:44 pm    Post subject:
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I've done some minor tweaking to cases that should fix the Argue method of pleading your case. I've also tweaked the other two methods so that they area *slightly* harder to do, depending on your skill level and bonuses, you may or may not notice a difference in either persuade, or intimidate. My advice is use the method you have the most skill in.
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