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Hardcoded Item Restrictions
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SolitaryTurnip



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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:15 am    Post subject:
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With guild-only items/bonuses, you could always say that they're very complex and require some sort of special training to operate, which can only be taught by the profession leader. It's not a very good explanation, because a mercenary with 200 medicine and electronics and whatever could certainly figure out how to use a cardiostimulator, but it definitely beats the "magic" explanation.
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Brenton
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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:42 pm    Post subject:
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This is the message you get when you try to revive a live person.


Quote:
>revive will
It would be against your code as a Medic to do such a thing to a living person!


Now, have you taken an oath as a medic not to screw around with people when you are a using medical tools? No? Okay then.
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Tylen
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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:58 am    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
I cannot agree with the notion that these teleports cause the professions involved to be indistinct.


I'm hardly saying that professions with teleports are similar, but those are far from unique abilities. I guess you can compare them to weapon skills. Sure they are different, but in the end they're all going to accomplish the same thing.

HR-Mickey wrote:
If anyone's painfully aware of the desirability of support professions, it's me. Besides my own PC, I can think of two or three other Performer characters off the top of my head that stick by the profession. Obviously, the Performer can't compare to triple-training pulse weapons and shield use and blowing the head off the Ruga Shliss thirty levels early, so I've tried to offset it by adding a few things that make the Performer glad they chose Performer. What I got instead were some people using a game mechanic loophole to swipe those items from someone that might happily use them with any recurring frequency.


It's great you want to reward people who actually play Performers. I wish someone felt that way about Bureaucrats.

But as long as you're putting it that way, what I see is your punishing people for obtaining items (by using legal and quite common means) you don't want them to have. Did you really not think something like that would happen? And there's still no incentive to get these items into the hands of Performers.

If they really wrongly abused some loophole (which I don't think they did), then I'd say just take the items away. Otherwise I'd say consider it a GM learning experience and do a better job next time.

Oh on a side note I don't even have a clue who any of these people are with the special instruments.

HR-Mickey wrote:
Conversely, if we were to lockstep ourselves in realism, I vote for no bonuses on any item, at all, ever. Much to my dismay, I've yet to find a guitar in the real world that makes me a better musician, or a deep-fryer that makes my girl cook (even) better food.


It wouldn't bother me in the least if bonus items went away. But such items seem to be a staple of games, so I'm not holding my breat waiting for that to happen. At least I can look forward to when the number of bonuses you can have is limited.

And this isn't about realism. It's about consistency. Why is that a bad thing?

HR-Mickey wrote:
Please bear in mind that I'm not trying to come across belligerently... but I can't see any rationalizing in opposition to restrictions that don't boil down to, "If they can have it, why can't I?"


I don't even want it. But you were looking for thoughts, and so I posted mine. Maybe I'm just frustrated because I thought this game would be "different" and fix a lot of the things you see wrong in other games.

SolitaryTurnip wrote:
With guild-only items/bonuses, you could always say that they're very complex and require some sort of special training to operate, which can only be taught by the profession leader. It's not a very good explanation, because a mercenary with 200 medicine and electronics and whatever could certainly figure out how to use a cardiostimulator, but it definitely beats the "magic" explanation.


You're right, it's not a very good explanation. I'd actually prefer "magic" over that. Except a cardiostimulator is technology so I'm assuming it can't be magic. Saying it's really complex doesn't really work well when you think about Joe the level 100 Janitor with 200 Electronics/Medicine/Research not being able to operate the same equipment that Osaecaeanioiaeee the level 10 Medic can use.

Meanwhile, Osaecaeani (for short) is allowed to attempt to use his toilet brush even though he only has 2 in Toilet Scrubbing. Ok, well replace "toilet brush" with "sewing kit" and "Toilet Scrubbing" with "Tailoring."
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Downtweak



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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:05 am    Post subject:
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Quote:
Meanwhile, Osaecaeani (for short) is allowed to attempt to use his toilet brush even though he only has 2 in Toilet Scrubbing. Ok, well replace "toilet brush" with "sewing kit" and "Toilet Scrubbing" with "Tailoring."


The idea that every system should work the same, especially ones that are so different, is (no offense) a quite obvious fallacy.
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mellie
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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:01 am    Post subject:
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I dont understand this whole "we have to make Haelrahv realistic" It is in fact a game and from everything Im hearing a far superior game even in test.

As for bonus items, I personally think they are far too easy to obtain. They do however exist and I am one of the ones that are happy to use them. I do think they should be profession related. You speak of Joe the Janitor having insane medic related skills, let me ask you this. Why is Joe the Janitor training medicine, electronics, research etcetra? Im sure it was a good example but I fail to see the reason such a person would even bother training medicine.

It all comes down to choices. If you want to use a cardiostimulater- be a medic. If you want to use the awesome instrument you obtained with a huge bonus- be a performer. If you want to use that awesome toilet brush with a gold handle- be a janitor (my attempt at an insane example).

I fail to see the bad point in profession related bonus items. I guess it all comes down to when you ask for opinions and or reasons you will get a little of both. My opinion- anything that makes a profession special is a good thing.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:53 am    Post subject:
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Quote:
I don't even want it. But you were looking for thoughts, and so I posted mine. Maybe I'm just frustrated because I thought this game would be "different" and fix a lot of the things you see wrong in other games.


I'd like to request a little help here. See, I can tell you have big issues with how some of Haelrahv is set up. In fact, it's so clear in your post and... well, so blatantly expressed that I wonder what you actually like about this game and why you play.

I'm not sure what this list of grievances is that you have with "Haelrahv and every other game" but I'd be delighted to know.

Moving on to the second topic I wanted to address, let's more carefully analyze this issue of a medic and a janitor in relation to a cardiostimulator. You seem (and I say seem because I could be misreading you...) to take offense (loosely) at the idea that a janitor can train all the necessary skills and not use the item. This leaves me perplexed as to whether you think all players should be able to revive, or if you feel that it is a good example of class distinction and believe other professions should follow suit so that only Trackers can track, only mages can use spells, only performers can perform spellsongs and only Agents can pick locks.

Then comes the issue of the skills. If one questions the realism of a janitor being a master of medicine and electronics and not being able to use a cardiostimulator, then one must question whether he should be permitted to train these skills at all. Realism says yes. Gameplay says who cares. You say but what's the point in training them? So, help me understand here.. are you a proponent of him not being able to train these skills because of his career choice, or are you a proponent of Bob the Superhero Janitor/Fred the once-doctor-now-janitor who jumps out of his closet and heals/revives people?

Overall I'd just have a far greater understanding of the point of everything you've posted if I understood what your desires and intentions really are.
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Tylen
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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:42 pm    Post subject:
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Downtweak wrote:
The idea that every system should work the same, especially ones that are so different, is (no offense) a quite obvious fallacy.


Hey, nice circular reasoning there.

Now what's so different about Sewing and Reviving? Both are skill based abilities suited to a particular profession. What is special about Reviving that it's profession-restricted? Pretend it's not so "obvious."

mellie wrote:
You speak of Joe the Janitor having insane medic related skills, let me ask you this. Why is Joe the Janitor training medicine, electronics, research etcetra? Im sure it was a good example but I fail to see the reason such a person would even bother training medicine.

It all comes down to choices. If you want to use a cardiostimulater- be a medic. If you want to use the awesome instrument you obtained with a huge bonus- be a performer. If you want to use that awesome toilet brush with a gold handle- be a janitor (my attempt at an insane example).


Why did Mellie the Trooper train fishing, cooking, and whatever else that isn't related to Troopers? Those are Tracker and Artisan-related skills.

If you want to be awesome with a fishing rod or frying pan, be a Tracker or Artisan. But others still get the chance to be mediocre. Well only in certain skills. Actually most skills, but medicine just happens to not be one of them.

HR-Trevor wrote:
I'd like to request a little help here. See, I can tell you have big issues with how some of Haelrahv is set up. In fact, it's so clear in your post and... well, so blatantly expressed that I wonder what you actually like about this game and why you play.


You know you're right, but this isn't the place to discuss that.

HR-Trevor wrote:
Moving on to the second topic I wanted to address, let's more carefully analyze this issue of a medic and a janitor in relation to a cardiostimulator. You seem (and I say seem because I could be misreading you...) to take offense (loosely) at the idea that a janitor can train all the necessary skills and not use the item. This leaves me perplexed as to whether you think all players should be able to revive, or if you feel that it is a good example of class distinction and believe other professions should follow suit so that only Trackers can track, only mages can use spells, only performers can perform spellsongs and only Agents can pick locks.


My opinion is that everyone should be able to try anything, assuming they have the appropriate skills required. Does it really hurt anyone to let Joe the Janitor use a cardiostimulator? Medics are still going to be better in this area due to their profession skill bonuses.

But I would be fine the other way too. It's just this unpredictable middle ground I have the most complaints with.

HR-Trevor wrote:
Then comes the issue of the skills. If one questions the realism of a janitor being a master of medicine and electronics and not being able to use a cardiostimulator, then one must question whether he should be permitted to train these skills at all. Realism says yes. Gameplay says who cares. You say but what's the point in training them? So, help me understand here.. are you a proponent of him not being able to train these skills because of his career choice, or are you a proponent of Bob the Superhero Janitor/Fred the once-doctor-now-janitor who jumps out of his closet and heals/revives people?


Once again, my preference is to see everyone have the ability to attempt everything. Or sure, have it the other way. Just none of this being allowed to train a skill but not being able to use it.

Now I'd like to hear your view on this (and the reasoning behind it) since it's your game and, well, your opinion matters more than anyone else's.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:20 pm    Post subject:
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Gotcha.

Well, my thoughts are in great part rooted in game balance and the way in which the things implemented affect the game, rather than in either realism or consistency. But let me give you an example.

If anyone could use the medical devices, there would be virtually no reason to play a Medic. So what if it takes even 50% longer to heal wounds or twice as many tries to pull off a revive? When someone was hurt or dead, you wouldn't be looking for a Medic, you'd be looking for anyone who trained medical skills, which would be a lot of folks.

This is different than say, an Artisan. While anyone can tailor, the Artisan benefits by being able to do it faster and make more money and gain more experience by doing it. The Trackers can do it too but not like an Artisan. Everyone else can do it but not near as well as either of those two.

Artisans also have a huge array of potential craft systems, of which some could be Artisan only if desired, or specfic aspects of that system could be Artisan benefits. Medic work is not that broad. You have a few very specific but important needs. And, players can already dabble a little in healing by way of dermagel, dermaplaz/bandages, and healing potions.

My personal take -- and this is one that I know some including some of my staff are not fond of -- is that we should make MORE things class-specific. For example, trim down the Mage spell list some but make it Mage-only, same for Psi. Give some professions (say, Trackers) potential magical abilities they can train, but don't open magic to the entire world. Likewise, make most tech specific to professions, and most abilities specific to professions as well.

I wouldn't go so far as to make picking locks Agent only for example, because that's an easy to control system. Yes, yes, I know it breaks "consistency", but you must realize that not every system is built equally to begin with. You can temper picking by making Agents so much better at it that other people can only perform as amateurs, picking boxes way below their level, but picking nonetheless. That's MUCH harder to pull off with a Medic. There is only so much room for deviation on a scale of wounds and who can heal what. Wounds also come in increments and healing often can reduce instances of very high level wounds that need more skill. You have no such increments with locks.

All in all, I think this issue is far less cut-and-dry than it seems like you view it, because each system has unique characteristics that go far beyond who can do it, and what the benefit is.
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SolitaryTurnip



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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject:
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Just none of this being allowed to train a skill but not being able to use it.


You can use everything, just not as well... can't you? Even stuff like medicine helps you with tending wounds, doesn't it? And if you can't use a skill, then don't train it... or be a different profession *shrugs*.
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Mischeif



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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:30 pm    Post subject:
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oooooooooook, first things first, this is a mmorpg,,,rpg just fyi is role playing game, just incase its been missed, that means FANTASY. now how can you have realism in fantasy? even one slight hint of realism in fantasy kills the term. second, its a game, hence another hint of fantasy, refer bak to the beginning. third, ive played many mmorpg's in my time, even played d&d before advanced came out. this one raises the bar of standards. last game i played, will remain nameless, the staff had a patented answer of "check the boards/news" and when you would check the boards, there would be little if any information. then if you posted and it didnt praise the company, your strand was removed. thats just one element, lets not get into changing leveling reqs monthly and the removal of skills from your reqs list. at least there is a level of consistancy, and the staff actualy listen and respond. i like the mechanics of the game, and remember its in beta, which means its being developed.
like i always say, if you dont like the music change the station. if you despise this game, the only reason i can see you staying is sadomasicism. im sure ya heard of the phrase "love it or leave it". well i think its time you either crap or get off the pot, lead follow or get outta the way, either way, enough is enough. build your own nonfantasy game where everything is real, then realize the number of players you have.
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Mischeif



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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:41 pm    Post subject:
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also lets not forget, most people play rpg's as an escape device from the real world, kinda kill the reason there by making it more real, made a poll, strictly on this issue.
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HR-Mickey
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:57 pm    Post subject:
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I'm vaguely confused, since I'm not sure where most of the recent dicussions had any grounded basis in items that only gave skill bonuses to certain professions.
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Mischeif



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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:53 pm    Post subject:
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it got way off topic with the "lets be more realistic" discussion. personaly, i support the profession and race items, gives people reasons to be that profession or race. if you want to buy them, kewl, buy em, just wont get the bonuses. and how to make it so you cant use em. since the races are different sizes, make it so they only fit in the hands of that race. by profession, make a skill trainable by only that profession that will give knowledge in how to operate the specific item.
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Tylen
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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:39 am    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
Well, my thoughts are in great part rooted in game balance and the way in which the things implemented affect the game, rather than in either realism or consistency.


Yeah but "game balance" is just one of those things that will never happen. Like world peace, or Neifl getting to see hot girl-on-girl action.

HR-Trevor wrote:
If anyone could use the medical devices, there would be virtually no reason to play a Medic. So what if it takes even 50% longer to heal wounds or twice as many tries to pull off a revive? When someone was hurt or dead, you wouldn't be looking for a Medic, you'd be looking for anyone who trained medical skills, which would be a lot of folks.

This is different than say, an Artisan. While anyone can tailor, the Artisan benefits by being able to do it faster and make more money and gain more experience by doing it. The Trackers can do it too but not like an Artisan. Everyone else can do it but not near as well as either of those two.


You're trying to make these sound a lot more different than they are. As for the first part, with our rather simple wound/death systems Medics wouldn't have much of an advantage if you let everyone use regenerators/cardiostimulators. But I'm assuming/hoping this will become more complex in Live, so that the difference between a dabbler and a real Medic would be more pronounced.

And for the second part, well so what if it takes you a little longer to tailor that gamojab pelt bra and you get less coin for it? As long as crafting systems are open to all, pretty much no one is going to be an Artisan full-time when they can be a fairly decent one part-time.

I don't know what the latest numbers are, but just from observing I'm going to guess that Medic, Performers, and Technicians (noncombat professions with profession-only abilities) outnumber Artisans (without a special ability). Bureaucrats are just a pathetic special case that would go just way out of the scope of this thread.

HR-Trevor wrote:
Artisans also have a huge array of potential craft systems, of which some could be Artisan only if desired, or specfic aspects of that system could be Artisan benefits. Medic work is not that broad. You have a few very specific but important needs. And, players can already dabble a little in healing by way of dermagel, dermaplaz/bandages, and healing potions.


Oh hm the stuff I said above about making wounds/death more complex. Another idea would be to make it more difficult to raise higher-level people or those who have been dead for a while.

HR-Trevor wrote:
My personal take -- and this is one that I know some including some of my staff are not fond of -- is that we should make MORE things class-specific. For example, trim down the Mage spell list some but make it Mage-only, same for Psi. Give some professions (say, Trackers) potential magical abilities they can train, but don't open magic to the entire world. Likewise, make most tech specific to professions, and most abilities specific to professions as well.


I think that would be better than what we have now.

HR-Mickey wrote:
I'm vaguely confused, since I'm not sure where most of the recent dicussions had any grounded basis in items that only gave skill bonuses to certain professions.


Yeah I don't know where all this 'realism' talk came from. Sometimes I think people don't know how to read.

And I'm still opposed to items only giving bonuses to only one profession.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:57 am    Post subject:
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I'm not sure what you really mean by making health systems more complex, and I'd like to hear something less general than that if you don't mind. We do have concepts in mind for "live" but I don't know that any of those would make a huge difference in the viability of a medic profession if everyone can use the same tools and train the same skills.

As for tailoring, I can't fault you for not knowing better because I have the hard numbers neatly worked out in a spreadsheet and you have the player experience to go by. But the truth of the matter is, Artisans make FAR more money tailoring than Trackers who in turn make more money than the rest of the gang. Artisans also make containers with far more capacity than non Artisans of equal skill. A non Tracker/Artisan is certainly wasting skill points if they train tailoring in hopes of making money. They'd do far better selling raw skins. The only reason for them to tailor is for experience and something else to do. Most of these tailors who are not of those two professions are undoubtedly losing money by tailoring instead of just selling skins and going out for more.

The reason you don't see many Artisans is because there are not many systems that are important to them or others that they can offer. No one needs pottery, it's just an alternate money/exp method. If JoeBob the Trooper needed pottery and the best quality pottery at that, you can be sure it would increase the value of Artisans even if others can do pottery. If Artisans could repair weapons and armor, you'd see a huge boon to them, even if others could do it too. Are you going to trust that immensely expensive/bonus weapon you managed to get to someone who might damage it due to poor skill?
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