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how much does coord help with craft systems?
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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:35 pm    Post subject: how much does coord help with craft systems?
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so i just gave myself 70 new lessons of coordination, but i'm not seeing that big a change in terms of how well i craft idols (i don't *think* it did much for tailoring either, but i didn't test it enough yet to make a fair statement on that).

when i had 130 (150) coordination, my kailet idols sold for 1322. now, they still sell for 1322... but i have 200 (220) coordination now.

i remeber reading that coordination was the most important artisan stat, followed by perception and mentality. but i'm not sure what it helps, because it took me the same amount of time to whittle the idol and i still sold it for the same price. i was hoping that by training the stat so hard and dedicating so many points toward artisan-related stats, i would have seen some kind of better result.
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HR-Valla



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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:10 pm    Post subject:
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It is true that coordination is a big part of the crafting systems, but by no means the sole variable that the equation is factored upon. Also, you should remember that skills (plural!), are factored in as well. As a rule of thumb, it is always better to be well rounded, than rely so heavily on one particular stat or skill.
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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:34 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Valla wrote:
It is true that coordination is a big part of the crafting systems, but by no means the sole variable that the equation is factored upon. Also, you should remember that skills (plural!), are factored in as well. As a rule of thumb, it is always better to be well rounded, than rely so heavily on one particular stat or skill.


oh, i know coordination isn't the be-all-end-all, but i'm amazed that 70 points of it didn't do a single thing (that i see, at least).

i also added 15 mentality than i had before (i had 110 (113), now i have 125 (128)) along with that coordination boost, and i planned to start upping mentality and perception evenly from now on, but since i didn't see any change so far i don't want to start pumping things if there was no real improvement for the things i do for money.

i really really really want to start ditching combat as my means of money and focus on being a true artisan, but if my stats aren't helping artisany things, i'm not sure where to go in terms of training for those intentions.
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:56 am    Post subject:
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continued end of those thoughts, since it seems like i'm not tailoring any better as well as not whittling any better:

while i doubted that training stats would completely circumvent skill requirements, i'm surprised that it feels like stats don't matter at all.

from my own non-seeing-the-code view, it looks like if i trained low coordination, i'd be as good at things as if i trained a lot of coordination (or at least if i have decent coordination as opposed to well over godlike).

i wanted to focus on craft-based stats (coordination/mentality/perception) and disregard the more combat based ones (strength/vitality) to play as a pure craft class, but if stats don't matter that much it isn't paying off to play as someone trying to be pure craft in terms of stat allocation. i'd like for the skills for craft systems to matter along with the stats that an artisan is encouraged to train.

crafting a kailet idol with 130 (150) coord and 110 (113) mentality: $1322
crafting a jabo eyelet gown with above: $1110-1130

crafting a kailet idol with 200 (220) coord and 125 (128) mentality: $1322
crafting a jabo eyelet gown with above: $1110-1130

while i wasn't expecting things to skyrocket with the changes, it would have been nice to see at least some kind of notable change with such an increase in craft-oriented stats. i picked being a very coordinated alteri for the reason of training stats that focused on crafting systems. i'd rather not feel like i'm on the same level, craft wise, as someone playing a jaddan or some other race that is geared more toward combat when my stats should make me a notably better crafting person.

as it is right now, i don't see my semi-insanely/insanely high coordination and now 125 mentality doing anything more for me as an artisan than the stats i had before. it isn't even a small increase in the quality of what i can do... or at least one that i can see. it's nothing at all. it takes me just as long to make things and the price/quality of everything is still the same.

i was hoping to see at least a notable boost in what i could do, especially since i was waiting 33 levels to start being better at crafts (and now i have to wait to train craft/tailoring slowly past 200 to see a change now, it seems).

i don't mean to come off as mopey and doom or gloom or anything, but i'm just not seeing my new coordination and mentality doing anything for me when they are meant to be the cornerstone of my profession (along with perception, which have a rather high amount of too).
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:18 am    Post subject:
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Coordination helps your chance of successfully crafting items. If you never have failures on existing available items, then no, you're not going to see a change.

It is intentional that coordination has no effect on the value of crafted items. Why? Because this is how you completely screw an economy, by letting any stat or skill someone can train skyrocket values.

Whittling was carefully compared to combat and foraging when I rewrote whittling. The amount of money a good crafter could make in any given time span could be predicted and this predictability was vital. Same holds for foraging. Combat is a bit different because you're not guaranteed box drops at any given rate, so average drop rates are used.

What you've really hit here is a wall of content. There's only so many items you can make and I assume that you could make them all to perfect condition before the coordination training. Therefore, your gain in crafting aspects are minimal.
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:59 am    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
Coordination helps your chance of successfully crafting items. If you never have failures on existing available items, then no, you're not going to see a change.


ack, okay. that clears up what the problem i'm facing, then. at least i figure those aracki webs will be easier to spin now, heh.

will it ever be possible for coordination (or craftsmanship, or mentality, or perception, or any combination...) to do something like at least reduce the crafting roundtimes or the times i need to whittle to complete a project? there's no such thing as capping out in terms of how well you fight when hunting (in terms of how quickly you can kill something). someone with 500 marksmanship and 150 coordination/mentality can, as far as i know, make something die faster than someone with 200 marksmanship and 100 coordination/mentality, meanwhile it sounds like i'm going to take the same time to whittle something forever at the same price. also, as far as i know, while someone needs ecology to forage/mine properly, perception still does help you in terms of how much you get/how often you are likely to get it, right? so while perception isn't the be-all-end-all for foraging/mining, it does do something, and i'm sure 200 perception is better than 100.

i don't intend to come off as doom and gloom here or anything, but i haven't really had anywhere to really grow as an artisan lately, and i thought finally breaking the caps at 100 and having (at the expense of training physical stats, which goes against not just what my profession should focus on but the general roleplay of my alterian wimp-o) the chance to increase the stats my profession is meant to focus on would result in better crafting results. i didn't think it would be only stats that i need, but i hoped it would at least make me better somehow. i figured it worked like spellsongs, psionics, magic, and so on. the primary skill mattered, but the stats made you better as well. The same goes for most (all?) of combat. Agility never caps out when it comes to dodging a blow, and more evasion always makes you better at it, as well. Even though being able to dodge and shoot better won't cause the Kuchos/Scourges/Etc to drop better things, you're more likely to live longer/kill faster/etc which does result in making more money. I'm not personally seeing an increase in effectiveness when I'm training the things that should make me more effective. It makes total sense that craftsmanship is the cornerstone of whittling and tailoring is clearly the cornerstone of tailoring, but i'm surprised that coordination/mentality/perception won't make me better at it (ie: get better money returns) by, if not making me make better products, then at least be faster at making them. That's how combat, to me, works.

i'm sure performers who train charisma past caps see better spellsong returns, psionics who train mentallity past caps see better psionic returns, mages with intel get better magic returns, troopers with vit get better health returns, and so on. all those kinds of returns result in more money because they're able to do what they do best better in combat, so why can't coordination/mentallity/perception make artisans better at artisan-related returns? if someone focused on a pure physical stats character and broke caps with tons of strength/vit/etc, i'm sure they'd kill a ton faster and make a lot more money just based on pure gross product gained. creation classes should be treated the same way.

i just really don't want to have to go and act like a combat class if i want to gain money at an increasingly faster rate. creation classes should have the same opportunities.
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject:
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Looks like you don't understand what he said.
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:
Looks like you don't understand what he said.


no, i understood, i disagree, and i showed my arguement why.

part of that whole "fleshing out the beta test of the game so the live version is awesome" process. called player feedback. awesome stuff. gotta try it, you'd love it.
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject:
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I was doing just that until you finally whined loudly enough about reallocations.
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:01 pm    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:
I was doing just that until you finally whined loudly enough about reallocations.




if you're going to troll, do it elsewhere.
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject:
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:25 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
will it ever be possible for coordination (or craftsmanship, or mentality, or perception, or any combination...) to do something like at least reduce the crafting roundtimes or the times i need to whittle to complete a project?


No, because fluctuating roundtimes equals fluctuating income levels, since you can essentially whittle non stop except for RT considerations. This would be essentially the same as letting stats change the value of crafted objects.

Quote:
there's no such thing as capping out in terms of how well you fight when hunting (in terms of how quickly you can kill something). someone with 500 marksmanship and 150 coordination/mentality can, as far as i know, make something die faster than someone with 200 marksmanship and 100 coordination/mentality, meanwhile it sounds like i'm going to take the same time to whittle something forever at the same price.


As mentioned, combat is less predictable. On average, higher skills equals to higher returns, yes. However, the same variables that make combat drops vary greatly also make risk vary greatly. Combat is intended to be more lucrative than other venues due to risk. We don't have any intention of trying to make crafting systems as lucrative as combat, because combat incurs risk crafters don't have to deal with.

Quote:
also, as far as i know, while someone needs ecology to forage/mine properly, perception still does help you in terms of how much you get/how often you are likely to get it, right? so while perception isn't the be-all-end-all for foraging/mining, it does do something, and i'm sure 200 perception is better than 100.


Yes, and again, I should point out that even in your case, 200 coordination is better than 100. However, when combined with your skill level and so on, you've hit a wall in content. Sure, we could adjust things, but the bottom line would be the same. By the way, foraging has hard caps in place too, so training doesn't improve results ad infinitum.

Quote:
i don't intend to come off as doom and gloom here or anything, but i haven't really had anywhere to really grow as an artisan lately, and i thought finally breaking the caps at 100 and having (at the expense of training physical stats, which goes against not just what my profession should focus on but the general roleplay of my alterian wimp-o) the chance to increase the stats my profession is meant to focus on would result in better crafting results. i didn't think it would be only stats that i need, but i hoped it would at least make me better somehow. i figured it worked like spellsongs, psionics, magic, and so on. the primary skill mattered, but the stats made you better as well. The same goes for most (all?) of combat. Agility never caps out when it comes to dodging a blow, and more evasion always makes you better at it, as well. Even though being able to dodge and shoot better won't cause the Kuchos/Scourges/Etc to drop better things, you're more likely to live longer/kill faster/etc which does result in making more money. I'm not personally seeing an increase in effectiveness when I'm training the things that should make me more effective. It makes total sense that craftsmanship is the cornerstone of whittling and tailoring is clearly the cornerstone of tailoring, but i'm surprised that coordination/mentality/perception won't make me better at it (ie: get better money returns) by, if not making me make better products, then at least be faster at making them. That's how combat, to me, works.


I understand the basic point you're making, and I can sympathize with the fact you're seeking goals as a crafter. I hope as things progress, more goals are offered for you. However, any comparison between any non combat system and combat can only be a loose comparison at best due to my above comments.

Quote:
i'm sure performers who train charisma past caps see better spellsong returns, psionics who train mentallity past caps see better psionic returns, mages with intel get better magic returns, troopers with vit get better health returns, and so on. all those kinds of returns result in more money because they're able to do what they do best better in combat, so why can't coordination/mentallity/perception make artisans better at artisan-related returns? if someone focused on a pure physical stats character and broke caps with tons of strength/vit/etc, i'm sure they'd kill a ton faster and make a lot more money just based on pure gross product gained. creation classes should be treated the same way.


Most of these systems have caps too, with exception of combat related stuff.

Quote:
i just really don't want to have to go and act like a combat class if i want to gain money at an increasingly faster rate. creation classes should have the same opportunities.


I think it's necessary to understand that us extending content for crafters is very complex. Combat is easy, by comparison. The hardest part is building a combat area. The creatures are easy to make and we could make things that present a challenge to pseudo-level 500 players if we wanted, easily. Crafting, on the other hand, is very different. We have to build complex systems and then there are limitations. We can't let you have infinite values because it would trash the economy. We can't let you have infinite capacity on containers you make, we can't let you make weapons of infinite power, and so on. There -has- to be limits.

Luckily, with "Live" we'll have a lot of chance to rethink the crafting part of the game and how to make it last a long while. This is not to say there won't be cool new stuff in the existing game, but Live is where the big stuff is going to happen, period.
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:24 pm    Post subject:
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ah well. thanks for clearing stuff up, trevor.

i'm not getting why there can't be harder and harder woods/fabrics like there are critters, but i understand there's a greater goal here than "make yaru tons of money".

i appreciate that you took the time to answer all this stuff in spite of me just being rather focused on getting stuff for my character to do so he can make more money, and i look forward to creation stuff in live (and whatever new stuff/additions valla/mickey/etc are plotting for beta, sa well).
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:41 pm    Post subject:
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This isn't really relavent to the topic at hand, but I want to emphasize that a statistically-balanced character shouldn't be anthema; there is life outside of NEWS 16. Some of the more usually neglected-by-the-playerbase stats play more important roles in day-to-day HR than we let on.

For instance, one of my current pet projects involves an insane amount of crafting, and a good portion of it is based on (of all things) Strength.
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:43 pm    Post subject:
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HR-Mickey wrote:
This isn't really relavent to the topic at hand, but I want to emphasize that a statistically-balanced character shouldn't be anthema; there is life outside of NEWS 16.

For instance, one of my current pet projects involves an insane amount of crafting, and a good portion of it is based on (of all things) Strength.


Strength : 4 (18)

:D looks like mellie can handle that one, then!

it isn't that i dislike the idea of having yaru balanced, more that i intended from day 1 to have him as a highly intelligent nimble kid who was weak as shit. i'm not surprised at all to lose out on things as a result, but it was just something i wanted to do for a change.
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A bright-eyed Thekko Ku Kalla dressed in a dapper sailor suit takes to flight and careers through the air toward the Modan Kucho and slams into him!
With a high-pitched cry, The Modan Kucho collapses in death.


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