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Morgana



Joined: 02 Aug 2003
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:09 am    Post subject: Spellbooks
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I'm just not understanding the purpose of spellbooks.

I'm guessing they were created to give one the ability to gain experience in the new experience system in spell research.
But ....
A mage's memory of spells should not fade, especially if they're using it all the time.

That's like a cook forgetting how to make chocolate chip cookies or a chiropractor forgetting how to adjust your back.

I just refreshed All the spells in the spellbook. IT TOOK ME AN HOUR. An hour just to script. And what did I gain.... 0.5 experience in Nskills and boredom.

And just to top this all off: Why did the time to study increase? Use to take me 20 sec RT for each study, 12 with Quick Potion. Now it takes 25-35 sec RT, 15-22 RT with Quick Potion.

I've absolutely no idea how to give constructive feedback on a system that affects Morgie directly and have no clue why it was created the way it was. Just totally frustrated with them.
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:35 am    Post subject:
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i think it's a tradeoff.

instead of only having, like, 10 spell slots, you now have an infinite number of them. the only trade off is that you either have to pick and choose which spells to remember, or take a lot of time remembering the patterns.

although, i do agree with you to a point.

personally, i use ripple a lot. a lot. so, i can't see yaru forgetting it. but, yaru only uses null gravity sometimes, so it makes perfect sense for him to forget how to use that one after a set amount of time. and he's yet to use any of the mage attack spells since he's been using rifles again. so it makes perfect sense for him to forget those rather fast.
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HR-Trevor
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Joined: 04 Oct 2002
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:56 am    Post subject:
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Quote:
I'm just not understanding the purpose of spellbooks.

I'm guessing they were created to give one the ability to gain experience in the new experience system in spell research.
But ....
A mage's memory of spells should not fade, especially if they're using it all the time.

That's like a cook forgetting how to make chocolate chip cookies or a chiropractor forgetting how to adjust your back.


It's not in for realism and realism wasn't a factor, although how someone can apply "realism" to something like magic that has no real life example to go by is beyond me. Who's to say magic is anything like cooking or learning a typical skill? But I digress...

Spellbooks were primarily put in for the reasons Yaru listed, to give an alternative for spell slots which are being removed. You will be able to have an ultimited arsenal of spells. They also give not only a way to train spell research, but a purpose since how long you remember your spells and the time it takes to research a spell is based on your spell research skill.

Quote:
I just refreshed All the spells in the spellbook. IT TOOK ME AN HOUR. An hour just to script. And what did I gain.... 0.5 experience in Nskills and boredom.


Once again I'm faced with someone assuming any undesirable element in the game is intended and getting upset to the point fo using caps and such over it. Can't we by now as a community learn that sometimes the staff isn't aware of some of the problems you experience and we rely on you for feedback? I don't think there's any legitamite reason for someone to be pissed off over a difficult system in the game until they've at least verified we chose to make it difficult.

That said, how many spells are we talking about? Did you study non stop? Is that 0.50% rank (a half rank)? I assume so.

Quote:
And just to top this all off: Why did the time to study increase? Use to take me 20 sec RT for each study, 12 with Quick Potion. Now it takes 25-35 sec RT, 15-22 RT with Quick Potion.


It didn't. I have not touched the spell studies code in a while, and didn't alter times when I did. I can't explain the difference to you, however, because it doesn't make sense to me assuming all the factors that affect RT are constant.

Quote:
I've absolutely no idea how to give constructive feedback on a system that affects Morgie directly and have no clue why it was created the way it was. Just totally frustrated with them.


Just a "Hey, I studied X spells and it took me Y time and that seems really long to me." would suffice. What I need is your opinion and your information. What isn't helpful is emotion.
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Morgana



Joined: 02 Aug 2003
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:05 am    Post subject:
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We've been complaining about the times on the comm all day.

I told you I didn't have constructive alternatives to state on a system that still bewilders me.

I stated that I was frustrated. No need to jump down my throat. I just asked why. I'm not asking for realism but on the other hand it makes no sense to forget something used every day.

I'll just stay quiet from now on. My apologies for being upset... it's frustrating to do something I've no clue why.
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:11 am    Post subject:
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i don't think trevor wants answers on how to make it better from you, but instead give him some data.

ie: give him your skills/stats and show how long it took for you to learn each spell. also, include if you'r learning fresh or just refreshing.
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HR-Trevor
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Joined: 04 Oct 2002
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:11 am    Post subject:
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I don't monitor the comms, it's not the proper place for me to look for or players to give feedback.

Morgana, I'm not sure why we're going through this "conflict" if you will, other than possibly due to sheer frustration on your part. I understand that frustration but I don't think I've earned being lashed at. I'm very receptive to player concerns, but I have to be aware of them first.

Also, you didn't answer my question about how many spells you refreshed during that hour period, and having that information available would be helpful.
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SolitaryTurnip



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:18 am    Post subject:
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Morgana wrote:
I'm not asking for realism but on the other hand it makes no sense to forget something used every day.


D&D/TSR has had mages doing it for the past 30 years. At least, I assume so... I'm not too familiar with the original rules. I still don't have a spellbook, so I really don't have much to add other than that... heh.

But I don't think it's intended that you memorize every spell every day, or however long it takes to run out. Even though I rarely (never) use magic in combat here, I've used magic in combat in other games, and I'd prefer a lot of spells in my spellbook with only a few "on hand" to less spells in my spellbook that are more easily (easilier?) available.
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Morgana



Joined: 02 Aug 2003
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:04 am    Post subject:
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Yaru answered my question without getting angry. Thank you.

I don't know what you mean by what spells. They all are longer in RT when I studied. I studied straight through the whole book of what spells I have

Code:
Once again I'm faced with someone assuming any undesirable element in the game is intended and getting upset to the point fo using caps and such over it. Can't we by now as a community learn that sometimes the staff isn't aware of some of the problems you experience and we rely on you for feedback? I don't think there's any legitamite reason for someone to be pissed off over a difficult system in the game until they've at least verified we chose to make it difficult.


How on earth you could say I'm pissed is beyond me. I said I was frustrated and asked for clarification on why they were made. Now your throwing whatever bad day you had at me.

Just a "Hey this is why I made these spellbooks. And I didn't know the times were increased" would have sufficed.

I am now totally upset over this. And I'm done with the thread.
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:10 am    Post subject:
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i'm sure you didn't intend it, but when you do things LIKE THIS it can come off as being pissed, especially since you were trying to stress that you were upset over things. so upset can be mistaken as pissed.

and maybe some spells are harder to memorize than others. i assume singing strike is a lot easier than, say, null gravity.
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Dzynna
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Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:15 am    Post subject:
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Morgana wrote:
Yaru answered my question without getting angry. Thank you.

I don't know what you mean by what spells. They all are longer in RT when I studied. I studied straight through the whole book of what spells I have

Code:
Once again I'm faced with someone assuming any undesirable element in the game is intended and getting upset to the point fo using caps and such over it. Can't we by now as a community learn that sometimes the staff isn't aware of some of the problems you experience and we rely on you for feedback? I don't think there's any legitamite reason for someone to be pissed off over a difficult system in the game until they've at least verified we chose to make it difficult.


How on earth you could say I'm pissed is beyond me. I said I was frustrated and asked for clarification on why they were made. Now your throwing whatever bad day you had at me.

Just a "Hey this is why I made these spellbooks. And I didn't know the times were increased" would have sufficed.

I am now totally upset over this. And I'm done with the thread.


He probably thought you were angry for the same reasons I did. Your method of posting.

What he means by what spells are - what spells do you have in your spellbook. Not everyone has every spell in their spellbook. Type SCAN BOOK and it will list the spells you have, then post which spells of those you were studying. Include how long it took to study, whether you were studying new or refreshing. Posting your relevant information such as stats and spell research skill would probably help in his determining if there was a problem, and if so, where it lies.
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HR-Mickey
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Joined: 24 Nov 2002
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:25 am    Post subject:
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SolitaryTurnip wrote:
D&D/TSR has had mages doing it for the past 30 years. At least, I assume so... I'm not too familiar with the original rules. I still don't have a spellbook, so I really don't have much to add other than that... heh.


Yeah, oldschool wizards had a spellbook, I think; the irony was that they had no spells at first level. "Elf" was like its own class for a while, and I think they casted in a way that 3rd edition refers to now as 'spontaneously'. God, 1st edition spellcasters sucked.
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Morgana



Joined: 02 Aug 2003
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:02 am    Post subject:
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1. Icy Aura
2. Howling Gale
3. Glacial Coat
4. Static Cloak
5. Magma Shield
6. Incineration
7. Singeing Strike
8. Jolt
9. Acid Bolt
10. Armor Aura
11. Elemental Shield
12. Arcane Shield
13. Corrosive Armor
14. Protect Legion
15. Blood Siphon
16. Siphon Vigor
17. Gust of Force

But now when I go through them all they're all at 20second per study. So no idea why I was getting 30 to 35 second RT's this morning.
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HR-Trevor
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:28 am    Post subject:
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Morgana:

I wasn't trying to raise hell at you or something, I simply genuinely felt the familiar sting of the sort of attack that we as staff, unfortuntately, endure on a regular basis (I'm not saying we endure it from you, I mean in general). That is: "This doesn't work like I think it should and I'm pissed and the GM's don't care what I think so I don't even know why I'm even posting on it!"

We get this periodically, and it's simply bogus. In almost every case we haven't even had a chance to respond to the issue and in almost every case the player in question cools down over the initial shock of system X not working as they thought it did and realizes, hey, we are listening, and we're willing to consider their thoughts and give fair, thought out response.

That doesn't mean we'll necessarily agree with them or make changes they hope for -- it depends on whether we really believe change is needed. But the point is that we do consider these things when they're brought to us, and so it's a bit offensive to me personally when I feel someone's lashing out at me for something I've had no chance to respond to yet.

It is apparently surprising to you that this is the first complaint I've actually received on this spell study issue, but that is in fact the case. So this entire post was out of the blue. The USE OF CAPS TO GET A POINT ACROSS and the subtle use of sarcasm ("and what did I get for it?", etc.) are the items that made your post look like a lashing to me, and your final paragraph seemed to seal it because you sounded very emotional.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm sorry if I seem that way or if you feel like you've been attacked for something you feel you harmlessly posted as feedback. If it makes you feel like I'm any more human or take this issue any more seriously, I'm making this post right now because I can't seem to sleep and I'm about 95% sure that's because of this incident occuring right before I attempted to call it a night. So here I am, making a novel of a response.

So. The actual issue... spellbooks.

Going by the information you provided me, we're looking at 17 spells which took an hour to refresh. We don't know how close each one was to being forgotten completely so let me just assume they were all some equal, close-to-forgotten level.

That being the case, each spell took roughly 3.5 minutes to restudy (60 minutes divided by 17 spells). How long did these spells last before you had to restudy them? It looks to me like your studies last fairly close to 60 hours each. That's in game time and idle time affects it minimally as long as you actually send no commands to the game while AFK (and I see you're currently AFK and "idle" so I assume you don't use rest mode, etc... good).

So you more or less get 60 hours of gameplay with these spells before you absolutely have to restudy them. Now, I don't know how many hours you log a month, but most players average somewhere around 120-150 hours a month. Allow me to just use 120 for you for easy math.

What we then have here is a case where you study spells for an hour and remember them for two weeks of gameplay. Is that an unreasonable deal to eliminate spell slots and allow you to learn as many spells as you want? I won't say it's necessarily ideal but I don't think it's necessarily horrible either. And, if you spread out your studies you wouldn't have to do them all at once.

You could study just two spells every day (sucking down only about 7 minutes of your time each day) and keep all your spells current that way. Just keep track of which spell you refreshed last and do the next two in the list tomorrow, and so on.

I realize this is a big adjustment from the old system, and some players will consider it needlessly confusing or complex. I realize that if we suddenly went back to the old system, some players would say, "Hey! I liked the new system! Now that you took it out I can only have half the spells available to cast that I used to have!"

In other words, I realize we're destined to have mixed support for this radical approach. But I really do believe it's the best method for the new skills/advancement system. We will probably fine tune the actual numbers some, and maybe I'll even alter the mechanics a little by making some spells easier to memorize than others, but even that will have mixed support too.

At any rate, please understand I am more than willing to explain things and provide all of our players with information as to why we made a particular choice to change how a feature in the game works. I'm also willing to talk about alternatives when possible, and consider changes to our plans when that seems appropriate. But the initial post you made seemed, well, very emotional instead of as a post seeking logical answers or explanations.

I again apologize if I misread you, or even for the fact I don't have the capacity to simply endure what feels like an attack, smile, and provide an answer. However, I am human, and I think that the human factor is something that most of our playerbase appreciates in the management of Haelrahv. To make use of something Dzynna just stated in another thread, you will virtually never hear me simply say a system is "working as intended" and leave it at that. For all its flaws, I believe in the human factor.

Please let me know if you have further questions about the spell system, or thoughts on any of the information I explained above.
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Platinumyan
Master Plush ;(


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:18 am    Post subject:
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Hate to jump in here, But where can we get some information on this system? Is this how you use the new pages? This for Psions too? Where are spellbooks found? Inquiring minds want to know! Or atleast ignorant ones.

Thanks,

Yan
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Kit
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:46 am    Post subject:
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Platinumyan wrote:
Hate to jump in here, But where can we get some information on this system? Is this how you use the new pages? This for Psions too? Where are spellbooks found? Inquiring minds want to know! Or atleast ignorant ones.

Thanks,

Yan



Yes, this is for psionics too. You need to go to Echak and make yourself a spellbook...or have someone else make it for you and then you attach the cover. The cover is what binds the book to you. The books on Echak are not limited just to spellbooks, but that's what you're interested in...anyhow, there's a pamphlet there to explain it all. You'll need to bring a mortar with you...but everything else should be there. You'll probably need a high level tracker or artisan to plane the boards for the backs of the book though.

The instructions will tell you how to insert pages, and then after that, you just study the pages in your book to learn your spell.

With this new system, you can learn EVERY spell. You find spell pages at the sactuary and in boxes and there are several psionic spells out that you have to learn this way. If you read the spell pages, it'll let you know how hard it is for you to control.

There are also quest spells...like the vagabond. You should go poke around.
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