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More PvP please
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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:06 pm    Post subject:
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The Alignment/Notoriety system planned is something along these lines.
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Tylen
Alpha Antifemale


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

 Post Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:19 am    Post subject:
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HR-Trevor wrote:
I hear you. I can think of a few good reasons though. Firstly, we have a lot of combat-specific professions, whereas non-combat specific professions tend to instead be niche professions. For example - Mercs, Troopers, Guardians are virtually pure combat and for a great part so are Agent, Mage, Psionic, and Tracker though those have other roles too. Now contrast this with Artisan: Creation/Repair non-tech, Bureaucrat: Political/Business, Medic: Healing/Cosmetic, Performer: General Utility/Entertainment (but damn well suited for combat), Technician: Creation/Repair Tech. You can see where some have a general role where blanket systems cover them, and others don't.

Also, non-combat professions generally much more research from the person building them. The biggest problem Bureaucrats have is a combination of complex needs and no guru.


Yeah I know why we don't have as much compared to everyone else, but I still want to identify a problem/need so that it can be discussed.

And as long as you mentioned it, if there's no one seriously working on Bureaucrats, what's going on with the justice system?

HR-Trevor wrote:
I can sympathize, and I agree to a point. But it's hard to imagine how much certain professions could really do. Bureaucrats could do a lot in the non-combat way. But say an Artisan? At least on their own, the worst they can do is refuse to help people. It's probably a bit much to really hope for equal footing in a solo situation. It would be nice though.


Part of the reason I made my ideas skill based since a few are shared among professions. If you managed to think up some ability based on Research (good luck), then you'd cover almost all the non-combat professions.

And just because it's difficult to come up with something for one profession doesn't mean it has to restrict what can be done for others.

HR-Trevor wrote:
I was hoping for more than 'they can do it so why can't we', but I'm not dismissing that as a valid answer. Obviously killing people does not resolve problems in many cases. There needs to be a resolution to that so it is more effective, IMO, so that it's a better tool. Maybe not wildly more effective as that mean the bullied also loses out, but it seems evident that in many cases we are able to organize the lynch mob, it's just not helping a lot. That was my point, and my question was, will these non-combat suggestions have that same effect, or will they have completely opposite effect and be TOO powerful?

I'm not dismissing the ideas. They're great ideas. I'm just having a discussion on their potential effects.


Seriously, I don't think there's anything (that would be seriously considered) that would deter a persistent bully. I'm of the opinion it often can't be done (take a look at Slowalker).

This is still about more options, more (or even some) noncombat options, and just basically giving people like Yaru (or me) a chance to defend themselves.

As for whether they'll be too ineffectual or too powerful, you know there's no real way to predict that. I don't think I've ever seen a system released into any game that has ever really worked as tested or intended. Pretty much everything ends up getting tweaked when it's released into actual gameplay, but that doesn't really cause people to be hesitant in releasing them.

HR-Trevor wrote:
That doesn't seem like a very fair statement. Nor an accurate one. But I would like to think that statement was made out of misunderstanding rather than an intent to speak ill of the game/staff. So I'll clarify our stance. It's always been our intention to have non-combat means to handle issues. These aren't simple systems you just toss out though, they take a lot of work and time to do right. Time we've been putting into live, etc. Even time we've put into things in test that one could call less important, because our intent has been to transition to live asap.

That time table has slowed down some now as I believe we really need to add some new content and features, and measures to handle conflicts is one of our goals. It has never, ever been our intent to say, "Fight well, get someone who can, or get screwed over."


Yeah I know it's tough for me as a player to think about what it will be in Live since I don't really know what's planned. I've certainly never heard about any other ideas for noncombat means to resolve conflicts.

And I was talking about the combat-oriented mentality of the players as much as the game. If for some reason you had released all the noncombat stuff first and had the combat system wait until live, I'd imagine people would still try to find a way to fight out their problems since that's the way it (almost) always gets handled in these games.

soundless wrote:
I don't think it's that the staff aren't trying, it's that there's nothing a newbie can really [currently] do if someone is constantly killing them over and over other than log off.


All the stuff I've been saying really isn't geared toward "newbies." If someone is repeatedly killing them, that's a separate problem.
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HR-Trevor
Boss Type Guy


Joined: 04 Oct 2002
Posts: 6683
Location: Louisville, KY

 Post Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:08 am    Post subject:
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Tylen wrote:

And as long as you mentioned it, if there's no one seriously working on Bureaucrats, what's going on with the justice system?


Let's just say it's being reviewed. Its implementation would probably include a few staff doing various parts of it.

Tylen wrote:

Part of the reason I made my ideas skill based since a few are shared among professions. If you managed to think up some ability based on Research (good luck), then you'd cover almost all the non-combat professions.


As you said, "good luck". Research is a broad skill, but it would be difficult to both find that solution AND make it not encroach on the 'territory' of other professions.

Tylen wrote:

And just because it's difficult to come up with something for one profession doesn't mean it has to restrict what can be done for others.


Na, I wasn't saying, "If we can't appease XYZ, let's do nothing for anyone." Don't read more into that than I meant.

Tylen wrote:

Seriously, I don't think there's anything (that would be seriously considered) that would deter a persistent bully. I'm of the opinion it often can't be done (take a look at Slowalker).


I wasn't talking about the most extreme cases, just the higher end ones in general, and even the average Joe.

Tylen wrote:

This is still about more options, more (or even some) noncombat options, and just basically giving people like Yaru (or me) a chance to defend themselves.


And I agree, options are good, as long as they are balanced within reason.

Tylen wrote:

As for whether they'll be too ineffectual or too powerful, you know there's no real way to predict that. I don't think I've ever seen a system released into any game that has ever really worked as tested or intended. Pretty much everything ends up getting tweaked when it's released into actual gameplay, but that doesn't really cause people to be hesitant in releasing them.


Yes, after spending many years in online game design, and even more in online game playing, I can certainly agree that one cannot expect to predict all the potential curves you'll be thrown with the release of new system. In fact, the only thing you *can* expect is that there will be some curves thrown. But this discussion isn't about predicting the outcome. It's about predicting potential outcomes, their effects, and ways in which to curb potential problems down the road. In such game design, a lot is very, very theoretical and far less substantial.

Tylen wrote:

Yeah I know it's tough for me as a player to think about what it will be in Live since I don't really know what's planned. I've certainly never heard about any other ideas for noncombat means to resolve conflicts.


Yep, you're very right. Other than the fact there will be a justice system, Bureaucrats serving in an attorney-style fashion, Mercenary contracts, and Alignment/Notoriety effects, not a lot has been stated for future plans. I'm not being sarcastic, I don't think that list encompasses the realm of everything we can do for this situation.

Tylen wrote:

And I was talking about the combat-oriented mentality of the players as much as the game. If for some reason you had released all the noncombat stuff first and had the combat system wait until live, I'd imagine people would still try to find a way to fight out their problems since that's the way it (almost) always gets handled in these games.


I still think the "For a game who prides itself on being different..." lead-in was a pretty pointed statement, and very much evidence of a sense of disappointment you obviously feel. Disappointment that I very much regret to be the case. But as in the case of other posts you've made in the past, it indicated you are quite unhappy with some aspects of the game, even more unhappy than you really have noted in your posts. Is it with the game? Is it with the players? Is it with the staff? All of the above? No idea. But something is there, and it's more than this one issue.
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Kelasa



Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 363

 Post Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:24 pm    Post subject:
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Research- Gossip mongering. Using it to lower their status with Talra and other NPCs for a period. Example: Citizens refuse to give them errands, trainers refuse to train, etc etc.
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Revan



Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Posts: 1

 Post Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:30 pm    Post subject:
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Perhaps your concept of a non-violent version of PvP is a good idea. However, PvP, reguardless of the form it takes, is still a form of agression and as expected, will probibly not be responded to well. I believe that if this concept of yours could be made possible but with moderation, then your idea might work well. I mean, the best goal of a good RPG is to make it a realistic as possible and I think your idea will help to accomplish that. However, at the same time, you must not hinder the abilities of those who have chosen to play a combative character. In life, those who train in combat/physical protection, will always be better in those core skills then a person who does not train in them reguardless if they may later try to sue them or something of that nature. I guess my point is that if you choose not to train in self-defense of some form, then that is a choice that you make and with all choices, there are consequences for those choices weather for good for for bad. Besides, how else is a good honest Merc to make a living anyway?
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soundless
EIGHT YEARS OLD!!!


Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 5970
Location: Spaceship

 Post Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:58 pm    Post subject:
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It's not that the non-combat methods of dealing with pvp will be better than straight up fighting- they'll just be different.

Sure, Trooper Bob can just stab Joe Burecrat in the face, but Joe can somehow get some strings pulled in Llanfair that makes Bob unable to buy or sell anything for a month.
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Tylen
Alpha Antifemale


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1192
Location: Not Colorado

 Post Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject:
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I guess you didn't really understand?

Revan wrote:
Perhaps your concept of a non-violent version of PvP is a good idea. However, PvP, reguardless of the form it takes, is still a form of agression and as expected, will probibly not be responded to well.


Ok, so far you're doing fine.

Revan wrote:
I believe that if this concept of yours could be made possible but with moderation, then your idea might work well.


Sure, it can be as moderate as combative PvP currently is.

Revan wrote:
I mean, the best goal of a good RPG is to make it a realistic as possible and I think your idea will help to accomplish that. However, at the same time, you must not hinder the abilities of those who have chosen to play a combative character.


My goal is not to hinder them anymore than they can hinder me. They'd be on equal footing.

Revan wrote:
In life, those who train in combat/physical protection, will always be better in those core skills then a person who does not train in them reguardless if they may later try to sue them or something of that nature.


That's pretty obvious and doesn't apply to just combat skills.

Revan wrote:
I guess my point is that if you choose not to train in self-defense of some form, then that is a choice that you make and with all choices, there are consequences for those choices weather for good for for bad.


And if you choose not to train Law, then you better hire a good lawyer when you get sued or sent to jail.

Revan wrote:
Besides, how else is a good honest Merc to make a living anyway?


There will still be plenty of people who can't get past the idea that PvP = combat.

Any questions?
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** The phrase "break a leg" just wasn't ambitious enough for Mellie Knight. [8:31 pm]
** Mellie Knight was soundly defeated by Aesal Anari-Idia in the Zgedhi Gkenrzeg Rav! [8:31 pm]
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